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POLKA14

hatsukashi serifu kinshi....
Articles Posted: 37  Links Seeded: 16
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I Believe that America Needs New Vision for Better Leadership Based on Anti-War Principles

Thu Mar 31, 2011 9:15 PM EDT
us-news, obama, military, peace, libya, leadership, liberalism, libyan-war, wars-of-aggression
By Polka14

Live Poll

Should Obama not seek a second term?

View Results
  • 143959
    Yes
    55%
  • 143960
    No
    45%

VoteTotal Votes: 33

Live Poll

Is the Libyan War justified?

View Results
  • 143961
    Yes
    26%
  • 143962
    No
    74%

VoteTotal Votes: 34

Live Poll

Is being anti-war a core liberal ideology?

View Results
  • 143963
    Yes
    40%
  • 143964
    No
    60%

VoteTotal Votes: 35

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When Barack Obama was elected as President, I was very energetic at the positive outcomes that could be created as a result of his election. I voted for him and I always understood that Obama will generally be known as a good President. I think he did everything he could with the situations he was given and the political environment that was almost completely created out of the hidden racism in this nation. He has faced unheard of disrespect from other politicians, the media, the fake media and many racist groups trying desperately to question the legitimacy of his presidency. Obama is someone that should be admired for his strengths and his experiences gained over decades.

I respect Obama but I am against any notion that the President is above criticism. I think that any liberal that cannot or will not criticize the President because he is a Democrat is a hypocrite. Good liberals like me have no problem challenging Obama's policies if they need to be challenged. With Obama, this problem is with the new war he has brought to America. A third war in Libya.

I have heard the arguments in favor and against the new war and I have formed my own opinions on this. A new war is against what we liberals fight against. We always fight against wars of aggression and wars of choice. Many liberals have opposed Bush's wars and it is very confusing to me to hear that some are calling Libya "the Liberal's war". If someone is pro-war, that person is not a liberal. The war is unjust for all reasons. The most important reasons include the fact that Libya is a sovereign nation and no foreign entity has a right to interfere in their affairs, the fact that oil is probably the greatest motivator for Europe's involvement and ours too, and the fact that this war proves that we never learned from the past when we directly overthrew the governments of other nations. The poorly armed, untrained and disorganized militants that call themselves "rebels" could all be Al-Qaeda or their sympathizers. Doesn't matter though. None of them are likely fit to lead their nation and we will likely send troops there when that nation falls apart. That is the most important reason for us to have not attacked Libya. We can't afford a third war and I can't believe that the Obama administration doesn't oppose this military conflict because it will cost many millions and the loss of American lives to fight this war if an invasion occurs.

I believe that Obama believes that the war is just. The just course of action would be to let Europe handle the situation. As an anti-war liberal, I am inclined to now oppose Obama. I don't think he is an evil person. He is simply misguided in allowing military action to occur in a third Arab nation for no just reason and for no benefit for the US. What we need is a President that understands that our military is to be used to defend our soil and only our soil from attacks from foreign nations. We are not the world's police. We are not here to rebuild every nation from natural disasters and from our own wars of aggression so that contractors can make money.

What I would like to see is a consideration from Obama that we need new leadership. What I would like to see is for Obama to step down and not run for a second term for President. I am thinking that now because I believe that wars of choice and wars of aggression are unacceptable. I don't want to see Obama resign and be replaced by some incompetent Democrat but I want him to be replaced by a Democrat that will work towards what are truly the core principles of Liberalism and that includes being anti-war.

A third war is not in America's best interest. Where will America strike next? There has been unrest in almost every Arab nation from Morocco to Iran. Should be invade them all? We should have vetoed the UN council action to impose a no-fly zone in Libya. That was the beginning of the act of war against Libya.

The most important idea to remember is that we need someone with the vision to understand that we should support stability, not military conflict and peace over war. The Republicans would support this war because they support illegal wars of aggression. They do not support it now because it is Obama that started it and they oppose everything Obama does. That is why we need a new Democrat in 2012 that will run on a promise that we will end this Libya military adventure (Because I believe it is only beginning at this point), end the Afghan war and not expand it and will not send US forces to any other part of the world.

I will not vote against Obama in 2012 but it could be best for the Democrats to run a new candidate for President.

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  • Public Discussion (153)
Polka14

Alright then. I will accept comments but I will not tolerate personal attacks or violations of the true CoH. I will not honor secret amendments or parts of the CoH. Furthermore any post deemed off-topic or inflammatory will be deleted at my discretion.

I am completely anti-war except in regards to literally defending US soil from foreigners. A third war is unacceptable and I think it will hurt the Democrats if something is not done to end it but it will probably not end. It is probably too late to prevent the use of ground forces now.

  • 7 votes
#1 - Thu Mar 31, 2011 9:18 PM EDT
King Dave

In effect what is being said here is:

"Peace means letting the Hitlers, Saddam's and Qaddafi's, have their way in the world, uncontested. Not our problem, it cost money, and freedoms are expected not acquired. Who cares about the slaughter of innocents? They are different, they are not Christians."

This is the moral high ground we are standing on? Not I. I wasn't born with the nerve to be so self- righteous.

  • 6 votes
#1.1 - Fri Apr 1, 2011 12:06 AM EDT
Polka14

I never used any religous arguments because I do not follow one. I oppose it because liberals oppose war. It is a waste of our money and resources and it is done for a variety of unjust reasons. US soldiers will have to be committed now that our third war has begun. I think Obama should let a new Democrat run for office in 2012 under a more peaceful platform. Starting another war of choice is something the Republicans are good at but not something democrats are expected to start.

  • 3 votes
#1.2 - Fri Apr 1, 2011 12:24 AM EDT
Rhep

I oppose it because liberals oppose war.

Some, not all.

Starting another war of choice is something the Republicans are good at but not something democrats are expected to start.

What about Clinton?

    #1.3 - Fri Apr 1, 2011 3:02 AM EDT
    King Dave

    What I want to know is: Are you alright with Qaddafi slaughtering his population?

    It hasn't happened in huge numbers yet, because of enforcement of a no fly zone. You are entitled to, and I'm not upset with your opinion, I just don't understand how it claims to be for peace. Doing nothing sends the message, when ever people wish to change their circumstances, their own government forces has the right to turn the civilian oposition into Swiss cheese, unmolested? No one has adequately explained that?

    • 3 votes
    #1.4 - Fri Apr 1, 2011 3:05 AM EDT
    Polka14

    Are you alright with Qaddafi slaughtering his population?

    I don't care. It is not our problem.

    Some, not all.

    I don't know any liberals that approved of Bush's two wars. I hope most of us did not oppose it because they were started by a Republican. That would be wrong. I know I oppose it because wars of aggression are wrong in all cases.

    Doing nothing sends the message, when ever people wish to change their circumstances, their own government forces has the right to turn the civilian oposition into Swiss cheese, unmolested?

    Maybe it does but it isn't our problem. Civilians died in our civil war. I would not have wanted foreign forces to intervene in our own internal conflict. It isn't right.

    • 3 votes
    #1.5 - Fri Apr 1, 2011 1:09 PM EDT
    Rhep

    I don't know any liberals that approved of Bush's two wars.

    Not even in October of 2011?

    What about Clinton's wars?

    • 1 vote
    #1.6 - Fri Apr 1, 2011 3:21 PM EDT
    Polka14

    All wars of choice are wrong. I don't think support for the wars were very high in 2011.

    • 3 votes
    #1.7 - Fri Apr 1, 2011 3:37 PM EDT
    Rhep

    http://www.aei.org/docLib/20050805_terror0805.pdf

    About 89% of America supported the invasion, I'm assuming you meant 2001.

    • 1 vote
    #1.8 - Fri Apr 1, 2011 4:45 PM EDT
    Polka14

    You said 2011. I think most liberals do not desire for US forces to remain in Afghanistan but I did not support the two wars and true liberals are always opposed to wars of choice.

    • 1 vote
    #1.9 - Fri Apr 1, 2011 5:27 PM EDT
    Rhep

    I meant 2001, typo heh.

    true liberals are always opposed to wars of choice.

    Pacifists yes, not all liberals.

    • 2 votes
    #1.10 - Fri Apr 1, 2011 6:04 PM EDT
    Polka14

    I would say that anyone that is pro-war is no liberal and should be essentially shunned by the liberal community. Liberals would agree that the military is needed to defend the nation but never for what most liberals call "blood for oil" wars like Iraq and similar wars in Afghanistan for the drug trade.

    • 3 votes
    #1.11 - Fri Apr 1, 2011 7:05 PM EDT
    Rhep

    Um can you show me something that says "liberals" are (or should be) anti-war?

    http://www.democrats.org/issues/national_security

    • 2 votes
    #1.12 - Mon Apr 4, 2011 12:14 AM EDT
    Polka14

    I don't understand. I always understood liberals to be on the side of peace and pacifism and conservatives to be on the side of war. I never see conservatives oppose a war. I have only seen liberals oppose conflicts during the Bush Administration because wars of aggression are wrong. If pacifism is not part of the liberal agenda now, then it needs to be part of it in the future and all liberals should acknowledge that peace and not war is the right path for this nation.

    • 2 votes
    #1.13 - Mon Apr 4, 2011 1:07 AM EDT
    Rhep

    I always understood liberals to be on the side of peace and pacifism and conservatives to be on the side of war.

    You should really stop trying to see the world in black and white when it is really shades of grey.

    I never see conservatives oppose a war. I have only seen liberals oppose conflicts during the Bush Administration because wars of aggression are wrong.

    So that ~90% approval rating for the invasion of Afghanistan was....?

    If pacifism is not part of the liberal agenda now, then it needs to be part of it in the future and all liberals should acknowledge that peace and not war is the right path for this nation.

    In your opinion, which is not shared by the Democratic party or any major "liberal" group that I'm aware of.

    • 3 votes
    #1.14 - Mon Apr 4, 2011 6:21 AM EDT
    KDWill

    Polka, while I agree with you on many issues, I cannot entirely agree with you on the idea of eliminating war altogether. Whilst I am a hardcore liberal in most respects, such as being against "unnecessary" wars, I also believe in "necessary" warfare, or "just" war. It's a controversial topic in and of itself, but I believe in protecting human populations at all costs when possible, whether it is our country or not. I consider that being socially responsible on a global scale because we are part of a global society, and death and destruction knows no boundaries. That is, arguably, more "liberal" than being against all things war.

    • 1 vote
    #1.15 - Sun Apr 17, 2011 3:54 PM EDT
    Polka14

    I believe that our military exists to defend our sovereign soil. Not to defend any foreign people. That is the only "just" war I recognize.

    I believe in protecting human populations at all costs when possible, whether it is our country or not.

    Then I am certain that you have already joined the military and have served in some way already if you believe in their cause. I believe the freedom and protection of foreigners doesn't concern us.

    I consider that being socially responsible on a global scale because we are part of a global society

    I am against the idea of a "global society" as it is uncomfortably close to a "New World Order" way of thinking and I oppose it completely. America must always be free, independent and modern and that means caring for our interests first and last.

    That is, arguably, more "liberal" than being against all things war.

    I have always believed that liberals have been anti-war for a long time from the protests against Bush II's wars of aggression to the Vietnam riots to the protests against our involvement in WWI. Wars of aggression are wrong.

    • 3 votes
    #1.16 - Sun Apr 17, 2011 5:31 PM EDT
    Mongowildman

    War is a trait of the Human Race. As long as there is greed, want, property, or anything that one has and another wants, there will be war. There are wars started because of lust, stupid disagreements, gold, oil, land, water, you name it. There have been wars fought over the stupidest things but as long as someone wants what you have, you may be a target for a war.

    The strongest reasons for war, happen to be the worst of them all. They are the religious reasons. Simply because one set of people does not believe the same as another, they are targeted. All of this for ideals that merely exist within the minds of man and do not have physical presence. How stupid can people be?

    Yes, there are good reasons to have a strong military. One of them is NOT to fight a way for someone else. It does not matter if they are allied with you or not, it is THEIR problem and they need to deal with it.

    Sure, if a situation causes the inevitability of an attacker taking over and spreading which becomes a "clear and present danger" to another, it may be justified in taking steps in a foreign country to stop it if you can but where do you draw that line?

    Defend your own soil and do it with determination and might. Leave it at that unless forced to take it to them. If that is the case, make damn sure you win, swiftly and decisively.

    • 2 votes
    #1.17 - Sun Apr 17, 2011 6:10 PM EDT
    KDWill

    I believe that our military exists to defend our sovereign soil. Not to defend any foreign people. That is the only "just" war I recognize.

    What is America, Polka? Beyond imaginary borders and and an imaginary community, it's a concept. A noble concept, certainly. But, nothing more. Why should we not protect all people, people that are the exact same as us, that just happen to inhabit different parts of the world? Does that imaginary line between us and them prevent us from doing so? The people on the other side of the imaginary border didn't choose to be born in their respective countries, nor did we. It's luck of the draw, but should that really determine our fate? I don't think so. And, I see no sufficient answer otherwise.

    Then I am certain that you have already joined the military and have served in some way already if you believe in their cause. I believe the freedom and protection of foreigners doesn't concern us.

    I did not join the military because, like I said, I don't necessarily support war in all, if not most, cases. Although I support our troops, I'm not a proponent of the Iraq War or even the war in Afghanistan for the most part, but I do support efforts to deny preventable genocide. All genocides are preventable, but political death for a politician if things don't go smoothly. What deters us from intervening most often, however, is the idea of national sovereignty--an international agreement, but not a "law" of any kind.

    My education--two degrees--are in international relations and diplomacy. I understand the want for no war, as I also believe peace would bring undeniable benefits to global society; but, until there are no armies or weapons to be used for evil purposes, there will continue to be armies and wars as a result.

    The freedom and protection of foreigners is our concern because those effected are the same as us, they are human beings. It is also our right as a country, as the current world hegemon (the U.S), to police the world. A responsibility we took upon ourselves when we entered WWI and, especially, WWII. Should we choose not to honor that responsibility, we are effectively letting Holocausts happen across the world. This may not seem a big deal to you, but were you born in that area and undergoing assimilation or elimination the way these other people are, you would ask, "why me?" What did these people do to deserve automatic bids for death? They have no say, no control. They're born to die. Shouldn't someone protect them?

    I am against the idea of a "global society" as it is uncomfortably close to a "New World Order" way of thinking and I oppose it completely. America must always be free, independent and modern and that means caring for our interests first and last.

    Sorry to say it, but in a globalized society this is our future. We are all effectively connected--socially, economically and politically. When one of us hurts, we all hurt. Isolationism is incredibly destructive to a nation's economy and turns us backwards socially. America will always be free, independent and modern so long as we keep adapting to the times, rather than shunning ourselves out from the rest of the world. There are too many global connections to go backwards without crippling our nation.

    I have always believed that liberals have been anti-war for a long time from the protests against Bush II's wars of aggression to the Vietnam riots to the protests against our involvement in WWI. Wars of aggression are wrong.

    Just like conservatives, blacks, Vietnamese people, Christians, non-Christians, etc, we can't group liberals into one category. I agree that wars of agression are wrong, but that doesn't make all wars agression wars, either.

    You may not agree with me on all facets, I'm sure. But don't get me wrong, I want to avoid war when possible, including all wars of agression and wars that I consider "just." That's why it's more important to go after the source of war--dictators, terrorists, weapons proliferation, etc--rather than just ignoring problematic situations.

    The best definition of "Liberalism" that I have been given, by a professor, was as follows:

    The belief that people can/are able to use moral reasoning to create rule, laws, and harmony with one another and work together. With this rationality we get laws which can be improved and expanded, especially concerning global governance (NOT to be confused with government). Includes the inherent capacity to work with one another (cooperation) rather than conflict.

    • 3 votes
    #1.18 - Sun Apr 17, 2011 6:26 PM EDT
    Polka14

    Defend your own soil and do it with determination and might. Leave it at that unless forced to take it to them. If that is the case, make damn sure you win, swiftly and decisively.

    Agreed. +1 for you.

    Why should we not protect all people, people that are the exact same as us, that just happen to inhabit different parts of the world?

    We are not the same. That is NWO talk.

    It is also our right as a country, as the current world hegemon (the U.S), to police the world.

    We are only one country. We can't afford to argue for that, morally or economically. I think foreigners need to fend for themselves and deal with their own affairs and their own problems without aid from the first world nations or the US.

    America will always be free, independent and modern so long as we keep adapting to the times, rather than shunning ourselves out from the rest of the world. There are too many global connections to go backwards without crippling our nation.

    But foreign intervention makes us look imperialistic in nature. We can't dictate the destiny of foreign nations. It isn't right. We do not command world dominance.

    This may not seem a big deal to you, but were you born in that area and undergoing assimilation or elimination the way these other people are, you would ask, "why me?" What did these people do to deserve automatic bids for death?

    It is unfortunate but that has always occured and probably will continue to occur and there is nothing we can do about it. That may be hard to accept for some. No foreigner deserves to die. That is why I encourage immigration for those that seek freedom and a better chance at life.

    • 3 votes
    #1.19 - Sun Apr 17, 2011 7:39 PM EDT
    KDWill

    We are not the same. That is NWO talk.

    We are not all human beings, really? What's the difference between you and a someone born in China, or Africa, or India? Why should they be treated any differently than you?

    We are only one country. We can't afford to argue for that, morally or economically. I think foreigners need to fend for themselves and deal with their own affairs and their own problems without aid from the first world nations or the US.

    We are one country, but there are nearly 200 in the world. I don't ask that we take everything on by ourselves, nor do I think we keep attacking things the way we currently are. We desperately need changes in policy and an international declaration of human rights. Is that really too much to ask?

    But foreign intervention makes us look imperialistic in nature. We can't dictate the destiny of foreign nations. It isn't right. We do not command world dominance.

    Foreign intervention looks imperialistic to those who don't know the facts or want to understand. We can't dictate the destiny of foreign nation, but we can influence them through policy. Global cooperation can effectively use policy to influence positive futures.

    It is unfortunate but that has always occured and probably will continue to occur and there is nothing we can do about it. That may be hard to accept for some. No foreigner deserves to die. That is why I encourage immigration for those that seek freedom and a better chance at life.

    There is the difference between us. Rather than thinking nothing can be done, why not think that something can? Creating better global living conditions would absolutely be beneficial economically for even our own nation's future. It's an investment. As for immigration, many of the people in countries enduring genocide don't have that option--it's not as easy as people think to escape these areas. Generally speaking, you have to be allowed to cross borders and pay to leave. That's why so many people cross borders illegally....

    • 3 votes
    #1.20 - Sun Apr 17, 2011 8:30 PM EDT
    Polka14

    We are not all human beings, really?

    The humans are different throughout the world. Everything about them is different and it depends on nationality and the specific human race that someone belongs to.

    We desperately need changes in policy and an international declaration of human rights.

    Only in regards to those nations that agree to it. Those that do not need to be left alone. Some nations may not want democracy or human rights for various reasons including cultural/religious reasons. Their destiny may lie with a different form of government. It is their decision to make.

    We can't dictate the destiny of foreign nation, but we can influence them through policy

    Policy should be one of peace, not one of force. Only peaceful policy should be allowed.

    Creating better global living conditions would absolutely be beneficial economically for even our own nation's future. It's an investment.

    If we can cooperate with a nation for the benefit of that nation and ours, then I agree that it would be best to do so.

    As for immigration, many of the people in countries enduring genocide don't have that option--it's not as easy as people think to escape these areas. Generally speaking, you have to be allowed to cross borders and pay to leave. That's why so many people cross borders illegally....

    That is very unfortunate and I agree that it shouldn't be that hard to escape dangerous environments. I don't think it is possible to directly interfere in a foreign nation's problems without undermining their sovereignty and/or culture unless a nation desires to enter a mutual agreement for improvements in their nation with foreigners.

    • 3 votes
    #1.21 - Sun Apr 17, 2011 8:52 PM EDT
    KDWill

    The humans are different throughout the world. Everything about them is different and it depends on nationality and the specific human race that someone belongs to.

    Different attributes, but human beings just the same. I would argue that we all deserve the basics of "natural law."

    Only in regards to those nations that agree to it. Those that do not need to be left alone. Some nations may not want democracy or human rights for various reasons including cultural/religious reasons. Their destiny may lie with a different form of government. It is their decision to make.

    Again, I still believe ideas like "natural law" should be universal. Life, among other things, should be a right, not a privilege--no matter where you live.

    Policy should be one of peace, not one of force. Only peaceful policy should be allowed.

    I agree.

    That is very unfortunate and I agree that it shouldn't be that hard to escape dangerous environments. I don't think it is possible to directly interfere in a foreign nation's problems without undermining their sovereignty and/or culture unless a nation desires to enter a mutual agreement for improvements in their nation with foreigners.

    That's exactly why I believe global cooperation is key in driving a peaceful future. Once peace is achieved, resources could be used for better causes and countless lives would be saved. If we put military engineers and funding towards better causes, think of the improvements that could be made with those resources.

    • 2 votes
    #1.22 - Sun Apr 17, 2011 9:16 PM EDT
    Polka14

    Again, I still believe ideas like "natural law" should be universal. Life, among other things, should be a right, not a privilege--no matter where you live.

    Well, maybe but don't count on your NWO to establish it if people like me openly oppose it.

    That's exactly why I believe global cooperation is key in driving a peaceful future. Once peace is achieved, resources could be used for better causes and countless lives would be saved. If we put military engineers and funding towards better causes, think of the improvements that could be made with those resources.

    I agree. The US can be a force of peace, not of war.

    • 2 votes
    #1.23 - Sun Apr 17, 2011 9:40 PM EDT
    Rhep

    If we put military engineers and funding towards better causes, think of the improvements that could be made with those resources.

    Historically, the greatest human advancements have been during times of war. Sad but true.

    Well, maybe but don't count on your NWO to establish it if people like me openly oppose it.

    He isn't pushing for the NWO, he is pushing for basic and universal Human Rights so events like in Rwanda never happen again.

    • 1 vote
    #1.24 - Mon Apr 18, 2011 2:53 AM EDT
    Polka14

    Historically, the greatest human advancements have been during times of war. Sad but true.

    But I would wish for eternal peace between civilized nations as those nations could continue to advance without wars that really only benefit a select few.

    He isn't pushing for the NWO, he is pushing for basic and universal Human Rights so events like in Rwanda never happen again.

    They will always occur unless you think the most powerful nations should be able to undermine other nation's sovereignty at will. It is terrible that those atrocities exist but there is almost nothing anyone can do about it even if they write some kind of "universal" Human rights.

    • 1 vote
    #1.25 - Mon Apr 18, 2011 10:37 AM EDT
    Rhep

    But I would wish for eternal peace between civilized nations as those nations could continue to advance without wars that really only benefit a select few.

    I would beg to differ that technological gains from warfare only benefit a few, but world peace is a noble ideal.

    They will always occur unless you think the most powerful nations should be able to undermine other nation's sovereignty at will.

    I believe Human Rights trumps national sovereignty. That doesn't mean I believe a single nation should decide they have a say in the goings-on of any nation they decide to focus their attention on, though.

      #1.26 - Mon Apr 18, 2011 11:22 AM EDT
      Polka14

      I would beg to differ that technological gains from warfare only benefit a few, but world peace is a noble ideal.

      Peace must exist between civilized nations. Unfortunately, not all nations are civilized.

      I believe Human Rights trumps national sovereignty. That doesn't mean I believe a single nation should decide they have a say in the goings-on of any nation they decide to focus their attention on, though.

      That is more NWO talk. National sovereignty trumps everything. The concept of "Human rights" can be abused to allow a NWO style force to undermine the independence of all nations.

      • 1 vote
      #1.27 - Mon Apr 18, 2011 11:31 AM EDT
      Rhep

      The concept of "Human rights" can be abused to allow a NWO style force to undermine the independence of all nations.

      By the same token, "national soverignty" can be abused to take over smaller countries neighboring your own.

      • 1 vote
      #1.28 - Tue Apr 19, 2011 8:27 AM EDT
      Polka14

      By the same token, "national soverignty" can be abused to take over smaller countries neighboring your own.

      No. One nation's soverignty can not be used to undermine the soverignty of another neighboring nation.

      • 3 votes
      #1.29 - Tue Apr 19, 2011 10:55 AM EDT
      Mongowildman

      No. One nation's soverignty can not be used to undermine the soverignty of another neighboring nation.

      Yes, but that does not stop them from using it as an excuse to try.

      • 1 vote
      #1.30 - Tue Apr 19, 2011 10:59 AM EDT
      Rhep

      No. One nation's soverignty can not be used to undermine the soverignty of another neighboring nation.

      China is trying damn hard to prove you wrong.

      • 1 vote
      #1.31 - Tue Apr 19, 2011 11:07 AM EDT
      Rhazes

      I would love to have a President like Dennis Kucinich or Ron Paul. The Military Industrial Complex is a massive machine that always needs to be fed.

      Telling Americans they need to sacrifice more wasting trillions invading other countries is weakening this country. Look at other modern countries they are building their infrastructure and future while ours is rotting.

      • 2 votes
      #1.32 - Wed Apr 20, 2011 1:34 AM EDT
      Polka14

      Yes, but that does not stop them from using it as an excuse to try.

      That would be an unjust war.

      China is trying damn hard to prove you wrong.

      The PRC is evil and has already destroyed sovereign Tibet. Those that respect the sovereignty of foreigners as the independent and unique peoples that they are will always oppose unjust conflict.

      Telling Americans they need to sacrifice more wasting trillions invading other countries is weakening this country. Look at other modern countries they are building their infrastructure and future while ours is rotting.

      Yes, we need to cut our armed forces. We are not fighting a cold war anymore. The Soviet Union dissolved because of military spending. It could at least inflict great damage on our infrastructure and economy by diverting our financial power.

      • 3 votes
      #1.33 - Wed Apr 20, 2011 1:40 AM EDT
      Rhep

      The PRC is evil and has already destroyed sovereign Tibet. Those that respect the sovereignty of foreigners as the independent and unique peoples that they are will always oppose unjust conflict.

      Morally oppose it all you want, won't make them stop - or even care.

      Just think, there are countries just like that all over the world.

        #1.34 - Wed Apr 20, 2011 8:45 AM EDT
        Reply
        Dean Moriarty

        The only potential candidate that has the balls to stand up to the American military complex and keep us out of war is Ron Paul. Check out his track record he opposed the wars in Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya and Drugs.

        • 2 votes
        Reply#2 - Thu Mar 31, 2011 9:37 PM EDT
        Polka14

        I will never vote for a libertarian or Republican. We need a Democrat in office but we need one dedicated to anti-war principles. Obama is not that person.

        • 6 votes
        #2.1 - Thu Mar 31, 2011 9:40 PM EDT
        GREG - STL

        Dean, if Ron Paul ran for president he would get my vote over Obama in a heartbeat. As funny as it sounds, Ron Paul is much more liberal than Obama. At least on his stances on war and the war on drugs.

        I cant believe i campaigned for Obama, he might as well change that D to an R.

        • 3 votes
        #2.2 - Thu Mar 31, 2011 10:03 PM EDT
        Polka14

        he might as well change that D to an R.

        In this case, yes. The Libyan War is completely unjustified.

        • 2 votes
        #2.3 - Thu Mar 31, 2011 10:06 PM EDT
        GREG - STL

        Polka, in many cases. He still hasnt spoken out on the assault on the middle class in Wisconsin, Ohio, and Michigan. Where are those comfy shoes Obama? Healthcare, he totally pu**** out and single payer wasnt even on the table.

        He got a few good bills passed, but it has been proven he does not have the ba*** to be a true progressive leader. It's ashame bush had balls and no brain, Obamas got the brain and no balls. We need real dems and progressives, who will stand up and fight the republicans and their dirty tactics. Instead, dems choose to play a defensive game. Not a smart strategy, good teams play offense AND defense well.

        • 4 votes
        #2.4 - Thu Mar 31, 2011 10:16 PM EDT
        Reply
        Village Idiot-2299796

        I Preferred An Obama Win, BUT ...

        I won't vote Democrat because I insist on a party that stands for peace.

        • 1 vote
        Reply#3 - Thu Mar 31, 2011 10:05 PM EDT
        Polka14

        I believe peace is a liberal trait too but there are too many hypocrites in the Democratic Party.

        • 2 votes
        #3.1 - Thu Mar 31, 2011 10:08 PM EDT
        Village Idiot-2299796

        That You Believe In Peace Is Why ...

        You should consider the Socialist Party USA, and check out the Platform on those issues in which you are interested such as agriculture, animal rights, the environment and more. I may not agree with everything in the overall program, but there is much here that is good and needful for our society, and to reestablish right and supportive relationships with each other. We could do much worse ... such as reaffirming the status quo.

        Check out the website. Judge it not by the name or size of the party, but by the quality of ideas, and the measure of your agreement with them.

        • 1 vote
        #3.2 - Thu Mar 31, 2011 10:47 PM EDT
        Polka14

        It seems like a party with good ideals. It would benefit the nation to see more good change. I have seen what kind of change the "Tea Party" brings and it would not be peaceful.

        • 4 votes
        #3.3 - Thu Mar 31, 2011 10:58 PM EDT
        Reply
        KYPIAKOC

        Unfortunately I dn't think it matters how liberal or conservative a president pretends to be, when it comes down to it, they'll go where the money is.

        • 8 votes
        Reply#4 - Thu Mar 31, 2011 10:15 PM EDT
        baddestbob

        truer words were never spoken!

        • 3 votes
        #4.1 - Thu Mar 31, 2011 11:09 PM EDT
        Reply
        baddestbob

        i like ron paul. i would support ron paul. however, there is a but in this support. ron paul has no realistic way to solve the debt ptoblem.

        • 2 votes
        Reply#5 - Thu Mar 31, 2011 10:18 PM EDT
        Bad Fish

        Republicans and Democrats have a long history of sending our children to war. These cowards send them to defend corporate interests across the globe. They will continue this practice as long as we elect them. We will never enjoy freedom or individual liberty if we cannot keep our children from serving these failed parties in their unjust wars. The only solution is to elect the only party that opposes this disgusting ideology, we must elect libertarians. Libertarians are the only group that supports true equal rights. They are the only party that supports peace and a foreign policy of non-intervention. What ever you think you are not if you help elect them. You cannot turn them from their corporate obligations. You must tune out their lies, stand up strong and tell them No!

        • 2 votes
        Reply#6 - Thu Mar 31, 2011 10:32 PM EDT
        Village Idiot-2299796

        Well, How Is This For A Start?

        1. We call for the closing of all U.S. military facilities at home and abroad that train foreign military and paramilitary personnel.
        2. We call for the United States to immediately and unconditionally withdraw its forces from Iraq and Afghanistan.
        3. We call for an end to the U.S. occupation of the province of Guantanamo, Cuba.
        4. We call for an end to the Israeli occupation of the West Bank-East Jerusalem and Gaza, and an end to all U.S. aid to Israel, as a precondition for peace.
        5. We support an immediate cutoff of all U.S. military aid to Colombia, and all other recipients

        If you like this, there is more to be had.

        Polka says we need a better vision of leadership based on peace principles. I agree. And I think I've found it.

        • 2 votes
        #6.1 - Thu Mar 31, 2011 10:52 PM EDT
        ryan-3256329

        The US does not always go to war for corporate interests. It goes for ideological(Korea, Vietnam), occasionally idealistic(Libya), and yes, business-related(Iraq). The whole "war for oil" meme is inaccurate. We only receive 15% of our oil from the Middle East--most of which comes from Saudi Arabia. And it is MUCH cheaper to make a deal a tyrant then to invade and occupy a country.That is what Bush's decision to invade Iraq makes no sense from a "war for oil" standpoint. The cost-benefit was simply not worth it.Billions of dollars of oil versus a trillion plus for a war.Even if he calculated--as is likely--that this would be a war of short duration the problems stemming from invading and occupying a country whose oil we do not need in a region we do not want to depend on for oil, make such an idea unpalatable to business interests. This for some reason is lost on all the "war for oil" people. They for some reason do not understand basic principles of business.

        Stability is a key part of our foreign policy. All economies need stability and our large military is there to guarantee stability. This causes us to pick-and-choose where and when we go to war depending on said countries importance to the international system. Libya with its large oil resources is infinitely more important then Sudan or Bahrain. What is ironic is that we are warring not for OUR oil, but for France's.

        Our troops are the police force needed to guarantee stability. A stable environment is an essential element of any community.That is why we have police forces. They provide protection from It is a basic building block of human civilization, Again, this is rudimentary stuff that people should have picked up in school.

        This does not mean we don't war for business interests or that all our wars just. Far from it. It just means that the reasoning given above are flawed.You have to look at how past empires are run, at how the US itself has developed, and analyze how businesses operate to really grasp the situation. People too often lean on their own prejudices and/or the terribly flawed Marxist interpretation of world affairs.

        Here is a novel idea: Think for yourself. Read as many viewpoints as possible, read history books(an immense help), and most of all THINK.

          #6.2 - Fri Apr 1, 2011 12:26 AM EDT
          Polka14

          There is nothing "idealistic" about the war in Libya. It is a war of choice and if we wanted stability, we would be aiding Gadhafi, not helping the militants that are trying to overthrow the government. Our past mistakes made by overthrowing foreign governments always lead to instability.

          What is ironic is that we are warring not for OUR oil, but for France's.

          That is sometimes called "blood for oil". I think France should spend its resources and the lives of their people for their oil.

          • 4 votes
          #6.3 - Fri Apr 1, 2011 12:58 AM EDT
          Reply
          Better Careful

          Thank you for the post on pacifism. The USA is the most aggressive and warring nation on earth. It's time we stopped. We now have war for profit, with mercenary armies and for-profit intelligence agencies all needing work. Our corrupt politicians are eager to please. Damn them all.

          • 3 votes
          Reply#7 - Fri Apr 1, 2011 12:08 AM EDT
          Polka14

          I am mostly embarrassed by my government's recent actions and the President's enabling of all this military action against Libya. Don't listen to the Republican opposition; it is meaningless. They would have supported this war if McCain was President.

          • 3 votes
          #7.1 - Fri Apr 1, 2011 12:25 AM EDT
          Reply
          Polka14

          Another reason Obama should not run a second term is because this new war is opposed by the vast majority of the American people. Most people know that we can't afford to engage our forces in another nation. It is unpopular and he is not listening while bombs destroy a sovereign nation's military, costing millions.

          • 2 votes
          Reply#8 - Fri Apr 1, 2011 12:28 AM EDT
          Minan59

          I would really prefer Obama face a challenger in the Democratic primary. He is far too much of a corporate Democrat and a centralist for my taste. I want a president that brings our troops home, not one that escalates our military involvement overseas. I one that pushes fair trade policies and job generation, not one that rewards businesses for outsourcing.

          • 5 votes
          Reply#9 - Fri Apr 1, 2011 5:56 AM EDT
          Max 3PO

          President Obama is doing better than any of the last 4 Republican Presidential Administrations, so lets keep him. I feel if the people and a hand full of Republicans gave him a little support he could pull off the biggest come back in History. It would compare to the biggest downfall created by Bush. People want him to fail, he's a good man with a lot more character than any of the GOP armchair QB's. Keep in mind where the country was the last time a Democrat left office and the condition of the country when the last 2 Republicans left. Take the time and look up the stats for yourselves.

          • 3 votes
          Reply#10 - Fri Apr 1, 2011 7:04 AM EDT
          Navy Doc 8404/06/09

          I am completely anti-war except in regards to literally defending US soil from foreigners.

          Liberal hypocrisy at it's best.

            #11 - Fri Apr 1, 2011 8:08 PM EDT
            Polka14

            How is it hypocrisy? The military's job is not to invade other nations but to protect this nation unless you think I meant that the nation should not have a military even for self-defense. I would not mean to imply that. Being anti-war means being against hostile military action against foreign nations.

            • 3 votes
            #11.1 - Fri Apr 1, 2011 8:12 PM EDT
            Navy Doc 8404/06/09

            If you have to ask, it's going to be a long night.

              #11.2 - Fri Apr 1, 2011 9:51 PM EDT
              Minan59

              I am completely anti-war except in regards to literally defending US soil from foreigners.

              That should be the only function of our military. The reason the second amendment exists is because the founders of this country did not want a standing army.They knew a large military would be a drain one the nation's resources.

              • 1 vote
              #11.3 - Sat Apr 2, 2011 6:06 AM EDT
              Polka14

              We almost lost the Revolution because we couldn't build an army. The military exists to defend our soil. The defense of this nation is not a burden that is placed on the civilian population.

              • 1 vote
              #11.4 - Sat Apr 2, 2011 12:00 PM EDT
              Rhep

              anti-war = pacifism

              National defense ≠ pacifism

                #11.5 - Mon Apr 4, 2011 12:21 AM EDT
                Polka14

                This is unfair. If you want to make me look like a hypocrite, then that is something I will have to tolerate. I don't think pacifism is an opposition to self-defense and I do not believe that allowing for self-defense would mean that someone is not anti-war but if I have to follow that strict standard, then I would have to say that we would not be allowed to respond to any attack on the US and we must not have any armed forces of any kind. I believe that is an unreasonable standard but I know that you only wish to discredit me and my article and make me look like a terrible hypocrite.

                • 3 votes
                #11.6 - Mon Apr 4, 2011 1:23 AM EDT
                Rhep

                Non-aggression isn't pacifism, it is non-aggression.

                http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/pacifism

                I don't aim to discredit anyone, I only allow their words to stand for themselves. I've noticed often times you are either confused as to what you mean or are ignorant of the true situation, you say you like to learn - use this as a learning opportunity.

                It seems you lean toward non-aggression over pacifism. A great example is Switzerland, they won't attack anyone but God help you if you decide to invade them.

                • 1 vote
                #11.7 - Mon Apr 4, 2011 6:30 AM EDT
                Polka14

                A great example is Switzerland, they won't attack anyone but God help you if you decide to invade them.

                I would prefer that the US mimic that attitude. We shouldn't be wasting trillions on maintaining overseas bases and three military operations in foreign lands. That money is probably enough to rebuild our infrastructure and would allow us to establish universal health care for our citizens.

                • 3 votes
                #11.8 - Mon Apr 4, 2011 12:31 PM EDT
                Robert in Ohio

                Polka

                I think you may be on the something

                I am not sure I agree that all troops shuld be brough home, but ending the conflicts is something you and I agree on and there could be a lot of money sved if we severely limited our overseas military presence.

                • 1 vote
                #11.9 - Mon Apr 4, 2011 1:05 PM EDT
                Polka14

                I think the education of our nation's children is more important then false ideological struggles in distant lands. The GOBP would disagree and that is why you, me and all Americans must oppose them in 2012. If I was president, I would withdraw all military forces from all foreign nations by executive order.

                • 2 votes
                #11.10 - Mon Apr 4, 2011 6:23 PM EDT
                Robert in Ohio

                Polka

                You know I am a conservative and that the GOBP thing irks me, but you just continue on

                I vote for people because of what they believe as individuals and what I think they will do, I do not oppose the Republicans or the Democrats just because. That is juvenile

                If we are to be isolationists then we would stop immigration as well, do you agree?

                • 1 vote
                #11.11 - Mon Apr 4, 2011 6:33 PM EDT
                Polka14

                You know I am a conservative and that the GOBP thing irks me, but you just continue on

                How am I expected to know that? Sorry if it offends you somehow but the GOP is more loyal to big oil then the American people. That is why I call them by that term. They earned it.

                I vote for people because of what they believe as individuals and what I think they will do, I do not oppose the Republicans or the Democrats just because

                Democrats are not perfect and not always do the right thing but Republicans are enemies of freedom and I will never support them.

                If we are to be isolationists then we would stop immigration as well, do you agree?

                No, we don't need to not allow immigration like Japan or Helvetia. Immigration is very valuable because it is what built this nation and it has existed even though our past isolationist periods and I would expect it to continue into the future.

                • 3 votes
                #11.12 - Mon Apr 4, 2011 6:45 PM EDT
                Robert in Ohio

                polka

                Look at comment #12.6 we talked about it before

                Never is a long time, I can remember when the Democrats for the party against civil rights, changes happen so I try to never say never about doing anything. You generalize way too much, because I have serious doubts that you have actually met all of the Republicans,but maybe you have

                So we want them to move here, but we do not want to provide military support if needed in there homeland

                Okay I get that

                • 1 vote
                #11.13 - Mon Apr 4, 2011 6:54 PM EDT
                Polka14

                So we want them to move here, but we do not want to provide military support if needed in there homeland

                Anyone can move here and become a citizen but we shouldn't attack a foreign nation without that nation attacking us. It isn't right. The war in Libya has no just cause. We were not attacked and the situation in Libya doesn't concern us in any way. We need to use our military for defensive purposes only and that means using it to defend the borders and our airspace.

                • 3 votes
                #11.14 - Mon Apr 4, 2011 7:11 PM EDT
                Robert in Ohio

                Polka

                Agree

                I am not talking abut attacking I am talking about our troops in Germany, Japan, and everywhere else on earth

                What about bringing them home

                We could use them to seal and protect the borders and disband the DHS as unneeded and save billions annually

                • 1 vote
                #11.15 - Mon Apr 4, 2011 8:25 PM EDT
                Polka14

                That is how it should be. Our forces should defend our borders and I think we should bring all of them back to the US.

                • 2 votes
                #11.16 - Mon Apr 4, 2011 8:43 PM EDT
                Robert in Ohio

                polka

                it took us a while, be we are in agreement

                good evening

                  #11.17 - Mon Apr 4, 2011 8:47 PM EDT
                  Rhep

                  We shouldn't be wasting trillions on maintaining overseas bases and three military operations in foreign lands.

                  Too late for that, we've already entered into too many treaties.

                  If I was president, I would withdraw all military forces from all foreign nations by executive order.

                  It doesn't work like that.

                  How am I expected to know that?

                  #12.6

                  The war in Libya has no just cause

                  Not even all of those human rights violations?

                    #11.18 - Tue Apr 5, 2011 12:08 AM EDT
                    Polka14

                    Too late for that, we've already entered into too many treaties.

                    Our government should be able to withdraw from them.

                    It doesn't work like that.

                    Why not?

                    Not even all of those human rights violations?

                    Not even for that. They do not concern us. If other nations don't like it, they should mobilize their armed forces and spend their nation's financial wealth and do something about it but I don't think they will without the US.

                    • 3 votes
                    #11.19 - Tue Apr 5, 2011 12:30 AM EDT
                    Rhep

                    Our government should be able to withdraw from them.

                    Not without pissing off most of the world, and we need them.

                    Why not?

                    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Executive_order_(United_States)

                    It would be breaking a treaty, and the President doesn't have that power.

                    Not even for that. They do not concern us. If other nations don't like it, they should mobilize their armed forces and spend their nation's financial wealth and do something about it but I don't think they will without the US.

                    Keep in mind it was a NATO action, which we took part in - not an American action. You haven't been following that conflict very closely, have you?

                      #11.20 - Tue Apr 5, 2011 1:58 AM EDT
                      Polka14

                      Not without pissing off most of the world, and we need them.

                      Need them? We may need them for economics but we do not need perpetual military occupation in countless nations. I do not believe that is in the nation's best interest but only in the interest of the military.

                      Keep in mind it was a NATO action, which we took part in - not an American action. You haven't been following that conflict very closely, have you?

                      I know that but I think if France really wants that oil then they can get it themselves. I don't know why we are bombing an independent nation while using this "humanitarian" nonsense as an excuse to get rid of Gadhafi. I will always be against this war and I know that starting a third war is a mistake and it may be one that Obama regrets in the end. I don't understand how those liberals that protested in the streets against Bush and his wars of aggression can do nothing against Obama. Those that fail are severe hypocrites and should be ashamed of themselves. That goes for all those that support or oppose it because their party is on the other side in this war. We could have done the right thing and vetoed it. The Chinese and Russians didn't even vote on the action. They know that situation is none of their business.

                      • 3 votes
                      #11.21 - Tue Apr 5, 2011 2:42 AM EDT
                      Rhep

                      Need them? We may need them for economics but we do not need perpetual military occupation in countless nations. I do not believe that is in the nation's best interest but only in the interest of the military.

                      What would happen to all of those economic factors if we just decided to say "Treaty be damned, we're out."?

                      I know that but I think if France really wants that oil then they can get it themselves

                      It isn't really about oil.

                      Those that fail are severe hypocrites and should be ashamed of themselves.

                      Yup, they are playing partisan politics and are actually doing the exact same thing they say they hate the Republicans for.

                        #11.22 - Tue Apr 5, 2011 6:07 AM EDT
                        Polka14

                        What would happen to all of those economic factors if we just decided to say "Treaty be damned, we're out."?

                        It could only be focused on fair economic trade.

                        It isn't really about oil.

                        It is to stabilize oil prices and to overthrow a regime they do not like. I'm sure the safety of the Libyan people is really the last part of their agenda in Libya.

                        Yup, they are playing partisan politics and are actually doing the exact same thing they say they hate the Republicans for.

                        Yes and that is terrible. At least some like me stand with the principles of anti-wars of aggression. Unfortunately, some are unwilling to stand with them with a Democrat in the White House. It is very unfortunate while our Air Force spends $4 million a day for this new war that is probably not over.

                        • 3 votes
                        #11.23 - Tue Apr 5, 2011 10:59 AM EDT
                        Rhep

                        God came to exist and the evolution behind God and the physics of God's abilities.

                        Like I've said...

                        They won't want to trade with us after we tell them to get bent.

                        It is to stabilize oil prices and to overthrow a regime they do not like. I'm sure the safety of the Libyan people is really the last part of their agenda in Libya.

                        Yea... I'm sure it has nothing to do with a nation on the HRC commiting blatant violations of human rights, or to disuade other nations that would violently stop protests - which will help promote peaceful change in the region.

                        It is very unfortunate while our Air Force spends $4 million a day for this new war that is probably not over.

                        http://www.npr.org/2011/04/04/135103441/u-s-role-in-libya-airstrikes-extended-short-term

                        http://www.bbc.co.uk/worldservice/news/2011/03/110325_nato_libya_wt_sl.shtml

                        http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/05/world/africa/05nato.html?src=twrhp

                        Our new role will be mostly AWACS and in-flight refueling.

                        We aren't running things anymore, we're just filling our obligations to NATO.

                          #11.24 - Tue Apr 5, 2011 6:43 PM EDT
                          Polka14

                          God came to exist and the evolution behind God and the physics of God's abilities.

                          Who are you quoting?

                          They won't want to trade with us after we tell them to get bent.

                          They may not want to but they may not have very many secondary options if they cut economic trade with the US; it would not be in their best interests to do so.

                          Yea... I'm sure it has nothing to do with a nation on the HRC commiting blatant violations of human rights, or to disuade other nations that would violently stop protests - which will help promote peaceful change in the region.

                          If human rights was a reason to bomb someone then we should be bombing Israel for their violation of human rights in occupied territories. The only people violating anything is us violating Libya's sovereignty and I mean their government, not the fake government the militant opposition created. And what would you say about Syria and Yemen? Protestors are dying there. Well, because I mentioned Israel, I would say that country has the most to gain from stability in the middle east and north Africa. Why doesn't that nation do something about it if human rights were the reason to bomb Libya?

                          We aren't running things anymore, we're just filling our obligations to NATO.

                          Why do we not leave NATO? Does it serve a real purpose without the existance of the Warsaw Pact? If we withdrew from it, we could withdraw all our military forces from foreign lands. Then we could be like Helvetia.

                          • 2 votes
                          #11.25 - Tue Apr 5, 2011 7:28 PM EDT
                          Rhep

                          Who are you quoting?

                          Copy/paste didn't stick, it was supposed to quote:

                          It could only be focused on fair economic trade.

                          They may not want to but they may not have very many secondary options if they cut economic trade with the US; it would not be in their best interests to do so.

                          It might hurt for a while, but they could do it - we can't do it without them.

                          If human rights was a reason to bomb someone then we should be bombing Israel for their violation of human rights in occupied territories

                          Deflection. Besides, Israel isn't on the United Nations Human Rights Council, nor are they in a civil war.

                          Protestors are dying there.

                          Not on the same scale, aside from that... it is because the government forces are killing civilians during a civil war, Libya is beyond the "angry protest" stage.

                          There is also this.

                          Well, because I mentioned Israel, I would say that country has the most to gain from stability in the middle east and north Africa. Why doesn't that nation do something about it if human rights were the reason to bomb Libya?

                          ...Because it was a UN mission (with Arab support).

                          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Security_Council_Resolution_1973

                          Go ahead and look at the countries that are helping in the mission.

                          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_military_intervention_in_Libya

                          Why do we not leave NATO?

                          Because that would be suicide for our country.

                          Does it serve a real purpose without the existance of the Warsaw Pact?

                          Yes.

                          If we withdrew from it, we could withdraw all our military forces from foreign lands.

                          No, we couldn't. It isn't the only mutual defense treaty we've signed.

                          Then we could be like Helvetia.

                          Except that Switzerland isn't the major force on the world stage. At this point America can't just say "ok, we're done." because we're too involved in the world for that.

                          Think of it like this...

                          Iran doesn't really like us much, right? But that isn't really a big deal because they can't get at us, even if they were dumb enough to try. Now take away all of the relationships we have built all over the world and suddenly Venezuala decides they don't like us much either (they don't) and don't really care if they attack us because we don't have any kind of presence in the area - and now we don't have any friends down there either. Now they might be more willing to let Iran use their beaches as a missile pad, this would be very bad for us.

                          Even if you are the biggest and baddest guy in town, you still need friends.

                            #11.26 - Wed Apr 6, 2011 1:00 AM EDT
                            Polka14

                            It might hurt for a while, but they could do it - we can't do it without them.

                            We shouldn't have to try and run our economy without economic relationships with foreign nations but it should not come with that kind of steep price. Why should be have to run bases all over the world? No other nation is expected to do so.

                            Deflection. Besides, Israel isn't on the United Nations Human Rights Council, nor are they in a civil war.

                            The fact that it is a civil war aids my argument that we shouldn't be interfering in that nation. Wars are deadly and civilians unfortunately die in all civil wars. It is the risk of that kind of conflict.

                            Not on the same scale, aside from that... it is because the government forces are killing civilians during a civil war, Libya is beyond the "angry protest" stage.

                            Yes, the civil war that is now foreign sponsored and fought by foreigners for their own agenda. The rebels would have lost by now if they were allowed to fight their own struggle alone. I know that civilians died but the US has killed many civilians in the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan and normally the US would say that it is an unfortunate result of war. Gaddafi's war to defeat the rebels would probably result in civilian deaths (because it is a civil war where rebels blend with the civilian population) but why would it be considered to be crimes when civilian deaths caused by US attacks are usually not judged the same way? Is it a simple double standard? I think Libya should have been expelled from the international community but should not have been attacked.

                            No, we couldn't. It isn't the only mutual defense treaty we've signed.

                            Well, I am not sure what we should do about that but the US should stand as a nation opposed to wars of aggression. Our military should exist only to defend our soil and our freedoms.

                            • 2 votes
                            #11.27 - Wed Apr 6, 2011 2:25 AM EDT
                            Rhep

                            No other nation is expected to do so.

                            No other nation can.

                            Wars are deadly and civilians unfortunately die in all civil wars.

                            They usually aren't targeted.

                            Yes, the civil war that is now foreign sponsored and fought by foreigners for their own agenda.

                            Really? I'd like to see any foreign soldiers fighting with the rebels - how about any foreign power supplying them with arms?

                            I know that civilians died but the US has killed many civilians in the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan and normally the US would say that it is an unfortunate result of war.

                            Again, we haven't tried to hit them.

                            I think Libya should have been expelled from the international community but should not have been attacked.

                            So you think we should just say "shame on you" and not really do anything about it?

                            Yea... that's working pretty well in Darfur and North Korea, right?

                            Well, I am not sure what we should do about that but the US should stand as a nation opposed to wars of aggression.

                            Well, I am not sure what we should do about that but the US should stand as a nation opposed to wars of aggression.

                            We do.

                            Our military should exist only to defend our soil and our freedoms.

                            Your grasp of military strategy rivals your understanding of international politics.

                              #11.28 - Wed Apr 6, 2011 2:37 AM EDT
                              Polka14

                              No other nation can.

                              The Chinese Empire can.

                              Really? I'd like to see any foreign soldiers fighting with the rebels - how about any foreign power supplying them with arms?

                              The rebels would have lost by now if foreigners had not waged war against Gaddafi's military. They may or may not give weapons to those militants but we do not know who they are. Half of them could be terrorist sympathizers and none of them could be fit to lead Libya.

                              Again, we haven't tried to hit them.

                              Is is never our fault when we bomb civilian areas? What do they expect as a result?

                              Yea... that's working pretty well in Darfur and North Korea, right?

                              That looks like a "deflection" to me. Shame on the UN for allowing Libya on their so-called "Human Rights Council".

                              We do.

                              Yes, in theory. It is in practice that we willingly wage them. But it must be acceptable because it is us that is waging it but when another nation decides to use its military for its own benefit, it is suddenly wrong.

                              Your grasp of military strategy rivals your understanding of international politics.

                              I think I understand that threats to our security are likely to exist from our borders. That is where our military should be positioned so our borders could be defended.

                              • 2 votes
                              #11.29 - Wed Apr 6, 2011 11:26 AM EDT
                              Rhep

                              The Chinese Empire can.

                              rofl! No, they can't. Militarily they are a regional power, at best.

                              The rebels would have lost by now if foreigners had not waged war against Gaddafi's military.

                              Guess he shouldn't have started bombing civies.

                              Half of them could be terrorist sympathizers and none of them could be fit to lead Libya.

                              They estimate very vew are terrorists, and there are several higher-ups from the government that have defected to join the rebels.

                              Is is never our fault when we bomb civilian areas? What do they expect as a result?

                              Again, there is a very large difference between intentional and accidental.

                              That looks like a "deflection" to me. Shame on the UN for allowing Libya on their so-called "Human Rights Council".

                              No it wasn't.

                              Do you know how a nation gets on the council?

                              But it must be acceptable because it is us that is waging it but when another nation decides to use its military for its own benefit, it is suddenly wrong.

                              We don't go around targeting civs.

                              I think I understand that threats to our security are likely to exist from our borders. That is where our military should be positioned so our borders could be defended.

                              So... do you think we should have entered WWI and WWII?

                                #11.30 - Thu Apr 7, 2011 12:00 AM EDT
                                Polka14

                                Again, there is a very large difference between intentional and accidental.

                                I think the difference is very small. I think the difference is intention.
                                Our government's favorite doublespeak to use is "collateral damage".
                                We are willing to kill suspected terrorists even if civilians get killed but that is "collateral damage" from the military's point of view. Civilian deaths not intentional but I'm sure the military is not concerned about it. Maybe that point of view is no better then the one shared by violent despots like Gadhafi. He is willing to kill civilians to destroy the militants and traitors to Libya and their conflict wasn't our problem but we made it our problem. I know the UN wanted the conflict but we aren't powerless. One veto from us could have prevented this war.

                                Guess he shouldn't have started bombing civies.

                                That wouldn't be very fair to the Libyan armed forces because they are fighting an force without uniforms that can blend with civilians in areas populated by civilians.

                                So... do you think we should have entered WWI and WWII?

                                War was declared on us in both conflicts.

                                • 2 votes
                                #11.31 - Thu Apr 7, 2011 2:21 AM EDT
                                Rhep

                                I think the difference is very small. I think the difference is intention.

                                That is the difference, which is huge.

                                Civilian deaths not intentional but I'm sure the military is not concerned about it.

                                Really? Because the ROE in the sandbox was made to minimise civ casualties.

                                One veto from us could have prevented this war.

                                And letting thousands of civilains get executed.

                                That wouldn't be very fair to the Libyan armed forces because they are fighting an force without uniforms that can blend with civilians in areas populated by civilians.

                                Doesn't matter, we face the same thing in Afghanistan and Iraq but we aren't allowed to just carpet bomb whole areas.

                                War was declared on us in both conflicts.

                                http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_entry_into_World_War_I#Declaration_of_war

                                http://www.worldwariihistory.info/WWII/United-States.html

                                We declared war first in WWI, while we were attacked first in WWII.

                                We tried to return to neutrality after WWI, but that didn't last long asWWII erupted. After that we decided to start playing World Police. Coupled with the advent of the Atomic Bomb, it has kept us out of WWIII and WWIV.

                                  #11.32 - Thu Apr 7, 2011 4:41 AM EDT
                                  Polka14

                                  Doesn't matter, we face the same thing in Afghanistan and Iraq but we aren't allowed to just carpet bomb whole areas.

                                  Maybe Libya doesn't have RoE.

                                  And letting thousands of civilains get executed.

                                  That is simply not our problem or the world's problem. What occurs in Libya is part of their sovereignty and should not be interfered in by foreign powers.

                                  We declared war first in WWI, while we were attacked first in WWII.

                                  The Germans were sinking our ships before we entered the war. That is what provoked our declaration of war against them.

                                  • 2 votes
                                  #11.33 - Thu Apr 7, 2011 11:29 AM EDT
                                  Rhep

                                  Maybe Libya doesn't have RoE.

                                  Every nation does, even if it's "Kill everyone."

                                  That is simply not our problem or the world's problem. What occurs in Libya is part of their sovereignty and should not be interfered in by foreign powers.

                                  So you are OK with what happened in Bosnia/Herzegovina, Rwanda, and Darfur?

                                  The Germans were sinking our ships before we entered the war. That is what provoked our declaration of war against them.

                                  Pearl Harbor is what brought us into the war, Germany and Italy declared war on us four days later.

                                  We declared war on Japan on the 8th, and Germany on the 11th - the same days they declared war on us.

                                  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Results_of_the_attack_on_Pearl_Harbor

                                  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neutrality_Acts_of_1930s

                                    #11.34 - Fri Apr 8, 2011 12:23 AM EDT
                                    Polka14

                                    Every nation does, even if it's "Kill everyone."

                                    Alright, I think you are right about that one. I guess their RoE might be to kill all the rebels and those that sympathize with them.

                                    So you are OK with what happened in Bosnia/Herzegovina, Rwanda, and Darfur?

                                    I am not supporting those acts if that is what you are asking but I don't think those situations are any concern of the United States to get involved in. If those nations break the international laws against those actions, then it would be best for the UN to remove them from the international community.

                                    Pearl Harbor is what brought us into the war, Germany and Italy declared war on us four days later.

                                    I think I was mentioning World War I. Our ships were attacked first before we entered that conflict.

                                    • 1 vote
                                    #11.35 - Fri Apr 8, 2011 4:14 PM EDT
                                    Rhep

                                    If those the international laws against those actions, then it would be best for the UN to remove them from the international community.

                                    Libya was a UN mission.

                                    I think I was mentioning World War I. Our ships were attacked first before we entered that conflict.

                                    The Zimmermann Telegram was intercepted and decoded by British cryptographers. Outraged public opinion now overwhelmingly supported Wilson when he asked Congress for a declaration of war on April 2, 1917. The United States had a moral responsibility to enter the war, he proclaimed, to make the world safe for democracy. The future of the world was being determined on the battlefield, and American national interest demanded a voice. Wilson's definition of the situation won wide acclaim, and, indeed, has shaped America's role in world and military affairs ever since. Wilson saw that if Germany would win, the consequences would be bad for the United States. Germany would have dominated the continent and perhaps would gain control of the seas as well. Latin America could well have fallen under Berlin's control.

                                    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_entry_into_World_War_I

                                      #11.36 - Mon Apr 11, 2011 12:03 AM EDT
                                      Polka14

                                      Libya was a UN mission.

                                      Yes and an unjust one too. The UN exists to protect member nations, not as an offensive military force. Obama has given himself very little room to manoeuver. He allowed for US and other world powers to aid the militants that desire to overthrow Gadhafi by not having the US veto the resolution but they will lose unless ground forces invade. Obama promised that it would not occur but their so-called humanitarian excuse will vanish if they allow the rebels to be killed when they do lose. Now that we have interfered, we can move forces in or allow our mistake to cost even more innocent lives and possibly American lives in addition to billions spent. That is unacceptable. This may certainly be known as "Obama's Iraq".

                                      The Zimmermann Telegram was intercepted and decoded by British cryptographers.

                                      I don't even remember why we started discussing WWI/WWII. They have nothing to do with our third war in an Islamic nation.

                                      • 1 vote
                                      #11.37 - Mon Apr 11, 2011 1:49 AM EDT
                                      Rhep

                                      The UN exists to protect , not as an offensive military force

                                      The United Nations is an international organization founded in 1945 after the Second World War by 51 countries committed to maintaining international peace and security, developing friendly relations among nations and promoting social progress, better living standards and human rights.

                                      http://www.un.org/en/aboutun/index.shtml

                                      Looks like they are doing exactly what they claim to do, protecting civilians.

                                      He allowed for US and other world powers to aid the militants that desire to overthrow Gadhafi by not having the US veto the resolution but they will lose unless ground forces invade.

                                      Really? They seem to be doing OK as long as we keep up the air-strikes.

                                      I don't even remember why we started discussing WWI/WWII.

                                      Because I used them as examples of wars we joined that didn't really effect us directly at the time but would have threatened us greatly had the axis powers won. It was also a very clear example of what happens when we don't play world police.

                                        #11.38 - Mon Apr 11, 2011 4:46 AM EDT
                                        Polka14

                                        Looks like they are doing exactly what they claim to do, protecting civilians.

                                        I am still convinced that they are there to protect the oil. "Protecting civilians" is an excuse.

                                        Really? They seem to be doing OK as long as we keep up the air-strikes.

                                        They are meant to enforce a "no-fly" zone but they are using airstrikes as an offensive tactic against the Gadhafi regime. Even if the rebel militants win, the nation of Libya may be destabilized by having to create a new government and what will the UN do if the nation collapses into civil war and anarchy? If that occurs then this mission to "protect civilians" has done more harm then good.

                                        Because I used them as examples of wars we joined that didn't really effect us directly at the time but would have threatened us greatly had the axis powers won.

                                        Germany didn't have the capacity to strike the US even if they did win in WWI and they were before we entered but they were fighting the British Empire, France, Russia and Italy. Even if Mexico decided to help Germany's cause, they would have been defeated by the US military and driven back to Mexico City. One of the reasons that we went to war was due to the fact that we begun to aid the western allies. We should have stayed neutral and maybe we wouldn't have had to fight them. WWII seemed unavoidable. But Libya is no WWI/WWII. We absolutely choose to attack that nation because our Government probably saw the unrest as an opportunity to undermine Gadhafi's regime and maybe seem him replaced with a good US puppet dictator. I can't say what Europe wants but there is a large amount of oil at stake for them.

                                        • 2 votes
                                        #11.39 - Mon Apr 11, 2011 10:51 AM EDT
                                        Rhep

                                        I am still convinced that they are there to protect the oil. "Protecting civilians" is an excuse.

                                        There are also people that believe the US government bombed the WTC.

                                        Even if the rebel militants win, the nation of Libya may be destabilized by having to create a new government and what will the UN do if the nation collapses into civil war and anarchy?

                                        http://ntclibya.org/english/

                                        They are already in a civil war, btw.

                                        If that occurs then this mission to "protect civilians" has done more harm then good.

                                        Yes, failure is bad.

                                        Also, fire is hot.

                                        Germany didn't have the capacity to strike the US even if they did win in WWI

                                        So if they took over all of Europe they would still be unable to attack America?

                                        The Kaiser did have plans to invade the US, btw. Not to mention that alliance with Mexico that was in the works....

                                        Even if Mexico decided to help Germany's cause, they would have been defeated by the US military and driven back to Mexico City.

                                        Not if they were paired up with the German Empire. They wouldn't have invaded until the war in Europe was over.

                                        We should have stayed neutral and maybe we wouldn't have had to fight them.

                                        There also wouldn't be much of a Europe as we know it today.

                                        We absolutely choose to attack that nation because our Government probably saw the unrest as an opportunity to undermine Gadhafi's regime and maybe seem him replaced with a good US puppet dictator.

                                        Your ignorance on the topic still manages to surprise.

                                        I can't say what Europe wants but there is a large amount of oil at stake for them.

                                        Stability in their neighborhood is my guess.

                                        Not everything is about oil, though you really do have a fascination with it.

                                          #11.40 - Tue Apr 12, 2011 12:18 AM EDT
                                          Polka14

                                          They are already in a civil war, btw.

                                          Yes, that is correct. I should have said they would suffer a greater civil war between tribal societies if the national government collapses.

                                          So if they took over all of Europe they would still be unable to attack America?

                                          No but it was impossible for the central powers to take over Europe. They were fighting a stalemate for years and it would have likely continued like that until all the powers have exhausted their military war machines. And there was social unrest in the German Empire near the end of the war so it was possible that they would not have been able to continue fighting indefinetly.

                                          There also wouldn't be much of a Europe as we know it today.

                                          If I am correct above, the war would have likely ended the same way but maybe later then 1918 and with more dead on both sides.

                                          Your ignorance on the topic still manages to surprise.

                                          Ignorance? Why do you think we are fighting Libya? Our government wants Gadhafi gone.

                                          Not everything is about oil, though you really do have a fascination with it.

                                          I like to remind people that oil has always been a factor in this nation's aggression around the world.

                                          • 2 votes
                                          #11.41 - Tue Apr 12, 2011 2:05 AM EDT
                                          Rhep

                                          No but it was impossible for the central powers to take over Europe

                                          Um, not really.

                                          They were fighting a stalemate for years and it would have likely continued like that until all the powers have exhausted their military war machines.

                                          Except for the armistice with Russia. Without the US support the western front would have eventually been pushed down by the Germans. The Allies were also taking heavier losses.

                                          If I am correct above, the war would have likely ended the same way but maybe later then 1918 and with more dead on both sides.

                                          There were whole divisionsof French and British soldiers that mutinied and refused any kind of offensive action.

                                          Our government wants Gadhafi gone.

                                          Because the people do. Gaddafi wasn't always an enemy.

                                          I like to remind people that oil has always been a factor in this nation's aggression around the world.

                                          Not really. I can't think of a single war we've fought over oil. I can think of several that we've fought because of communism though.

                                            #11.42 - Tue Apr 12, 2011 2:50 AM EDT
                                            Polka14

                                            Except for the armistice with Russia. Without the US support the western front would have eventually been pushed down by the Germans. The Allies were also taking heavier losses.

                                            That is possible but I don't believe they could have invaded the British Empire and you don't think that France could have signed an armistice with the Germans if they thought they were losing the war? The penalty of defeat would have been the same that the Germans suffered. Loss of colonial possessions, financial responsibility and possibly a mandatory cut in their military power.

                                            There were whole divisionsof French and British soldiers that mutinied and refused any kind of offensive action.

                                            Never heard of it. I should do research on that today.

                                            Because the people do.

                                            The militants do not have popular support. The government does and when is it our place to determine if a government in a foreign nation should be overthrown?

                                            Not really. I can't think of a single war we've fought over oil. I can think of several that we've fought because of communism though.

                                            Not even the Gulf War? We liberated oil rich Kuwait and fought the Iraqis because they threatened oil rich Saudi Arabia.

                                            • 3 votes
                                            #11.43 - Tue Apr 12, 2011 11:40 AM EDT
                                            Rhep

                                            That is possible but I don't believe they could have invaded the British Empire and you don't think that France could have signed an armistice with the Germans if they thought they were losing the war?

                                            Nations only surrender when they feel they are going to lose, not that they might lose.

                                            The militants do not have popular support. The government does and when is it our place to determine if a government in a foreign nation should be overthrown?

                                            I've never heard that Gaddafi has a high support rate, source?

                                            Not even the Gulf War?

                                            That was the UN stopping those wars of aggression you hate so much.

                                            Remember, gobbling up little neighbors is how WWII started.

                                              #11.44 - Wed Apr 13, 2011 12:29 AM EDT
                                              Polka14

                                              Nations only surrender when they feel they are going to lose, not that they might lose.

                                              Signing an armistice is not the same. Its purpose would have been to end the war by agreeing to certain demands and I listed the demands that would have been met if the allies could not win.

                                              I've never heard that Gaddafi has a high support rate, source?

                                              I think I read about it somewhere. Maybe on Newsvine. I am not sure where but I will try to find a good source.

                                              That was the UN stopping those wars of aggression you hate so much.

                                              Yes but was it really our problem if Iraq annexed Kuwait? Our freedoms were not threatened. That is what I was talking about earlier. I believe that America should stand for neutrality in regards to foreign conflicts unless we are directly involved.

                                              Never heard of it. I should do research on that today.

                                              I read about it. It is unfortunate but both sides suffered mutinies.

                                              • 1 vote
                                              #11.45 - Wed Apr 13, 2011 12:58 AM EDT
                                              Rhep

                                              Its purpose would have been to end the war by agreeing to certain demands and I listed the demands that would have been met if the allies could not win.

                                              An armistice is a cease-fire, a draw.

                                              Yes but was it really our problem if Iraq annexed Kuwait?

                                              Yes.

                                              I believe that America should stand for neutrality in regards to foreign conflicts unless we are directly involved.

                                              We're a major part of the United Nations - we don't get to do that anymore.

                                                #11.46 - Wed Apr 13, 2011 1:23 AM EDT
                                                Polka14

                                                An armistice is a cease-fire, a draw.

                                                Yes, it is.

                                                Yes.

                                                Why?

                                                We're a major part of the United Nations - we don't get to do that anymore.

                                                And the Russian Federation and the PRC are not major parts of the UN? They didn't even vote on the resolution to attack Libya and they are permanent members of the security council. They choose neutrality.

                                                • 1 vote
                                                #11.47 - Wed Apr 13, 2011 11:50 AM EDT
                                                Rhep

                                                Yes, it is.

                                                If a side knows they will win, they usually don't accept a cease-fire.

                                                Why?

                                                We don't leave our allies to hang like that.

                                                And the Russian Federation and the PRC are not major parts of the UN?

                                                Not in the same way we are.

                                                They didn't even vote on the resolution to attack Libya and they are permanent members of the security council. They choose neutrality.

                                                Don't even try to pretend Russia and China are any kind of example for international neutrality - they both have very long histories of picking on their neighbors.

                                                They opposed it for their own agendas, not because they wanted to remain neutral.

                                                  #11.48 - Thu Apr 14, 2011 12:03 AM EDT
                                                  Polka14

                                                  If a side knows they will win, they usually don't accept a cease-fire.

                                                  I'm confused. I hope you know that WWI ended with an armistice. Our generals wanted to go to Berlin but the war ended through that treaty. Why could the war not have ended with an armistice with France/Beligium/Netherlands on the losing side?

                                                  We don't leave our allies to hang like that.

                                                  It is wrong to think that the US can or should help everyone with their problems. If Iraq wanted to annex Kuwait, they had decided that it was really part of Iraq anyway so it was only a regional conflict. Not our problem in my opinion. In your opinion, it was.

                                                  Not in the same way we are.

                                                  How?

                                                  They opposed it for their own agendas, not because they wanted to remain neutral.

                                                  And we didn't support this new war for our own agenda? We have a long history of using military means to create regime change in many foreign nations.

                                                  • 2 votes
                                                  #11.49 - Thu Apr 14, 2011 1:12 AM EDT
                                                  Rhep

                                                  Why could the war not have ended with an armistice with France/Beligium/Netherlands on the losing side?

                                                  Because Germany was going for a win - we were going for an end.

                                                  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Versailles

                                                  If Iraq wanted to annex Kuwait, they had decided that it was really part of Iraq anyway so it was only a regional conflict.

                                                  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invasion_of_Kuwait

                                                  How?

                                                  They aren't the most powerful or influential nations in the world. As #1 it's kinda our duty to take the leadership role.

                                                  And we didn't support this new war for our own agenda?

                                                  Meh, like I said - it was a UN action.

                                                  We have a long history of using military means to create regime change in many foreign nations.

                                                  Not as long as the other two. ;)

                                                    #11.50 - Thu Apr 14, 2011 1:21 AM EDT
                                                    Polka14

                                                    Because Germany was going for a win - we were going for an end.

                                                    So even if they could win and take over France, they would not have been able to invade the UK and certainly couldn't have invaded the US. The Germans couldn't invade that nation when they did occupy France in WWII. So the Germans were no real threat to us.

                                                    They aren't the most powerful or influential nations in the world. As #1 it's kinda our duty to take the leadership role.

                                                    A real leader should promote anti-war principles and use dipomacy to solve international problems but should know when to not interfere in problems that only concern the internal problems of one nation.

                                                    Meh, like I said - it was a UN action.

                                                    And the UN should know when they are conducting wars of aggression. It is against the Geneva conventions.

                                                    Not as long as the other two. ;)

                                                    I do not think that is important. We have interfered in foreign governments from Panama to Grenada to Iran.

                                                    • 3 votes
                                                    #11.51 - Thu Apr 14, 2011 1:54 AM EDT
                                                    Rhep

                                                    So even if they could win and take over France, they would not have been able to invade the UK and certainly couldn't have invaded the US

                                                    Why not?

                                                    The Germans couldn't invade that nation when they did occupy France in WWII.

                                                    They very well could have, it would have just taken more time than they were afforded with the United States entering the war.

                                                    A real leader should promote anti-war principles and use dipomacy to solve international problems but should know when to not interfere in problems that only concern the internal problems of one nation.

                                                    We do use diplomacy first, that's why Libya has been the only nation we've needed to bomb out of all of the countries in the ME that have been having revolutions.

                                                    Sometimes dictators don't want to listen.

                                                    Long term instability in Libya would hurt the entire region - not just that country.

                                                    And the UN should know when they are conducting wars of aggression. It is against the Geneva conventions.

                                                    How is it a war at all, let alone a war of agression?

                                                    I do not think that is important. We have interfered in foreign governments from Panama to Grenada to Iran.

                                                    Most - if not all - of your examples will come from the Cold War era doctrine of trying to surround and contain Communism.

                                                      #11.52 - Thu Apr 14, 2011 3:08 AM EDT
                                                      Polka14

                                                      Why not?

                                                      They didn't have the resources and with their navy mutanies, I do not think they could have landed a military force in the United Kingdom.

                                                      They very well could have, it would have just taken more time than they were afforded with the United States entering the war.

                                                      Germany failed to achieve air superiority in the war so invading the UK was probably impossible and the Soviet Union couldn't be defeated so they were going to win in the Eastern Front. If we had a choice to go to war, we should have stayed neutral against the Germans. The Japanese attacked us so fighting them was not a real choice but if they did not attack us, we should have stayed completely neutral.

                                                      Long term instability in Libya would hurt the entire region - not just that country.

                                                      The events occuring now in Libya is long term instability. The conflict in Libya would have ended by now if the airstrikes had not occured against Libya's air force and ground forces.

                                                      How is it a war at all, let alone a war of agression?

                                                      Attacking a nation's military assets is an act of war.

                                                      Most - if not all - of your examples will come from the Cold War era doctrine of trying to surround and contain Communism.

                                                      But it is unjust to try and determine how foreign governments are run. I would not want foreign influences in our elections. It was wrong for us to undermine foreign regimes.

                                                      • 1 vote
                                                      #11.53 - Thu Apr 14, 2011 12:07 PM EDT
                                                      Rhep

                                                      They didn't have the resources and with their navy mutanies, I do not think they could have landed a military force in the United Kingdom.

                                                      So even if we didn't join the war, you think that England could have held out forever?

                                                      Germany failed to achieve air superiority in the war so invading the UK was probably impossible and the Soviet Union couldn't be defeated so they were going to win in the Eastern Front.

                                                      Couldn't be? The world would have been a very different place if Hitler would have waited to attack Russia, or even given his troops cold weather gear.

                                                      The events occuring now in Libya is long term instability.

                                                      It's been like two months, that isn't "long term" in any sense of the phrase.

                                                      The conflict in Libya would have ended by now if the airstrikes had not occured against Libya's air force and ground forces.

                                                      Ended with tens of thousands of civilians dead, maybe.

                                                      Attacking a nation's military assets is an act of war.

                                                      Mercenaries don't count as combatants.

                                                      It was wrong for us to undermine foreign regimes.

                                                      Lesser of two evils. The Soviets had no problems making other nations their puppets, we were just trying to limit the fallout.

                                                        #11.54 - Fri Apr 15, 2011 12:36 AM EDT
                                                        Polka14

                                                        So even if we didn't join the war, you think that England could have held out forever?

                                                        I think so but if they do not have the capacity to invade us then who cares? Same with Iraq. Maybe they were right to reclaim Kuwait. They used to be one nation before the European empires divided it. It is not important though and it wasn't our problem if Kuwait was absorbed except that it has oil and we can never stand a loss in oil revenue.

                                                        Couldn't be? The world would have been a very different place if Hitler would have waited to attack Russia, or even given his troops cold weather gear.

                                                        Could have. Should have. But did not. I would think that the Nazis would have made the same mistakes and would have lost the same battles on the Eastern front and would have been defeated. The Russians could not have been defeated because casualties are unimportant to them. Only victory is important to them and they gain it regardless of how many millions of soldiers are lost. Hitler's dream of European domination was lost when the Germans stepped into Soviet territory.

                                                        It's been like two months, that isn't "long term" in any sense of the phrase.

                                                        This war has likely only begun unless the rebel militants are defeated but the West apparently doesn't want that to occur.

                                                        Ended with tens of thousands of civilians dead, maybe.

                                                        Yes. Maybe. You do not know if anyone not armed would have died so now our military action endangers even more civilians by allowing the civil war in Libya to continue even though the militants can not win against Libya's military.

                                                        Mercenaries don't count as combatants.

                                                        Were mercenaries armed with tanks and aircraft?

                                                        Lesser of two evils. The Soviets had no problems making other nations their puppets, we were just trying to limit the fallout.

                                                        Both nations were wrong to try and determine the destiny of foreign nations. The battle of ideology was wrong on both sides.

                                                        • 2 votes
                                                        #11.55 - Fri Apr 15, 2011 12:05 PM EDT
                                                        Rhep

                                                        I think so but if they do not have the capacity to invade us then who cares?

                                                        It's bad policy to leave your allies to hang, I thought we covered that?

                                                        They used to be one nation before the European empires divided it.

                                                        I think it had more to do with all of the money Iraq owed Kuwait that they didn't want to pay back - especially considering the last time the two were the same country was during the Ottoman Empire.

                                                        The Russians could not have been defeated because casualties are unimportant to them.

                                                        The Soviets lost over 14% of their population during the war - how much more do you think they could have lost?

                                                        During WWII the Soviets had a military of 34,476,700 people serving. Of which 10,725,345 were killed, 14,915,517 wounded, and 5,750,000 captured or missing. That leaves 3,085,838 soldiers to win a war.

                                                        I believe if the US hadn't entered the Nazis very well could have altered world history in a much bigger way than they had.

                                                        Hitler's dream of European domination was lost when the Germans stepped into Soviet territory.

                                                        Very well could have been.

                                                        This war has likely only begun unless the rebel militants are defeated but the West apparently doesn't want that to occur.

                                                        The war had already started, but it would have likely been a guerrilla conflict by now - with lots of civilian losses.

                                                        You do not know if anyone not armed would have died so now our military action endangers even more civilians by allowing the civil war in Libya to continue even though the militants can not win against Libya's military.

                                                        We do know, because they did.

                                                        Were mercenaries armed with tanks and aircraft?

                                                        Probably many of them were supplied heavy arms by the Gaddafi government.

                                                        Both nations were wrong to try and determine the destiny of foreign nations. The battle of ideology was wrong on both sides.

                                                        I'd rather be wrong than dead.

                                                          #11.56 - Sat Apr 16, 2011 12:35 AM EDT
                                                          Polka14

                                                          It's bad policy to leave your allies to hang, I thought we covered that?

                                                          That is your opinion. I respect that but I think that is wrong. We were attacked so we had to enter the war but if we were not attacked, then we shouldn't have invaded.

                                                          I think it had more to do with all of the money Iraq owed Kuwait that they didn't want to pay back - especially considering the last time the two were the same country was during the Ottoman Empire.

                                                          Yes, they had their conflict with debt and the oil situation but the territory thing was part of the Iraqi justification for the war. Interesting that the ones responsible (Europe) for that was part of the coalition that drove Iraq out of Kuwait.

                                                          The Soviets lost over 14% of their population during the war - how much more do you think they could have lost?

                                                          Their nationalism and powerful armed forces were too much for the Germans to overcome. They were inspired by their leaders to fight to the death at all costs.

                                                          I believe if the US hadn't entered the Nazis very well could have altered world history in a much bigger way than they had.

                                                          I disagree. If we had no reason to fight in the war, it would not have impacted the fact that the British Empire kept air superiority over the English Channel and that the Germans probably would have lost the war in the East. The result would have been constant bombing of Nazi manufacturing and military assets from UK RAF while desperately trying to stop the Soviet momentum towards Berlin. The only problem I can think of are two problems in the West. The British Empire needed supplies. If the US supplied them, we would have broken neutrality. If not, it would make bombing the Nazis and invading France more difficult. And retaking Nazi captured lands in the West and fighting them in North Africa and their navel assets would be more difficult. I am not too certain on that but I think the allies (UK, Canada, Australia) would have won without the US.

                                                          The war had already started, but it would have likely been a guerrilla conflict by now - with lots of civilian losses.

                                                          It would have been over by now or only fought by a few lightly armed scattered bands of militants near Egypt's border. Civilians die and that is unfortunate but that happens. Gadhafi has popular support and under his rule, Libya is one of the most prosperous nations in Africa. It is believed that Al-Qaeda has openly supported the movement to destroy Gadhafi. It can't be good if Al-Qaeda and US are working for the same goal. Those militants can't be good for Libya or the peace of North Africa itself.

                                                          I'd rather be wrong than dead.

                                                          Our freedoms were not at risk by the spread of communism anywhere in the world. Our government simply did not like it because they would lose influence over foreign nations.

                                                          • 3 votes
                                                          #11.57 - Sat Apr 16, 2011 1:09 AM EDT
                                                          Rhep

                                                          We were attacked so we had to enter the war but if we were not attacked, then we shouldn't have invaded.

                                                          That's fine, I just happen to think it's bad policy to not look beyond the current conflict.

                                                          Yes, they had their conflict with debt and the oil situation but the territory thing was part of the Iraqi justification for the war.

                                                          Sometimes people lie to try and justify war. Generally people don't agree to a border and then say "Oh... we're going to take that back."

                                                          Interesting that the ones responsible (Europe) for that was part of the coalition that drove Iraq out of Kuwait

                                                          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Kuwait

                                                          Iraq has a history of trying to claim Kuwait and getting kicked in the butt because of it.

                                                          They were inspired by their leaders to fight to the death at all costs.

                                                          If by "inspired" you meant "prodded at gun-point" sure.

                                                          If we had no reason to fight in the war, it would not have impacted the fact that the British Empire kept air superiority over the English Channel and that the Germans probably would have lost the war in the East.

                                                          They were wearing down RAF air power, and they likely would have fought to a stalemate at which point the Nazis would have asked for a cease-fire to concentrate on the Russians.

                                                          I am not too certain on that but I think the allies (UK, Canada, Australia) would have won without the US.

                                                          I have to disagree, because there wasn't much evidence of it before we entered.

                                                          Gadhafi has popular support and under his rule,

                                                          You still haven't cited a source for that.

                                                          It is believed that Al-Qaeda has openly supported the movement to destroy Gadhafi.

                                                          Wasn't that claim made by Gaddafi himself?

                                                          Our freedoms were not at risk by the spread of communism anywhere in the world. Our government simply did not like it because they would lose influence over foreign nations

                                                          I would argue that our freedoms were at risk if our enemies/rivals turned most of the world against us.

                                                          Just look at the Cuban Missile Crisis.

                                                            #11.58 - Sat Apr 16, 2011 2:02 AM EDT
                                                            Polka14

                                                            Sometimes people lie to try and justify war. Generally people don't agree to a border and then say "Oh... we're going to take that back."

                                                            Yes like Bush when he made up the 9/11-Saddam connection and the WMD stuff.

                                                            Iraq has a history of trying to claim Kuwait and getting kicked in the butt because of it.

                                                            And the West always interfered with their border disputes. Why can't the west "mind its own business"?

                                                            If by "inspired" you meant "prodded at gun-point" sure.

                                                            Well, some more cowardly people had to be inspired a little harder but it had to be done.

                                                            They were wearing down RAF air power, and they likely would have fought to a stalemate at which point the Nazis would have asked for a cease-fire to concentrate on the Russians.

                                                            No way. Not unless they agreed to withdraw from Western Europe and the worst scenario would have been a slowed down Soviet advance across Eastern Europe but that would not have given the Nazis enough time to develop nuclear weapons.

                                                            I have to disagree, because there wasn't much evidence of it before we entered.

                                                            Even if they did lose and I think that is impossible, we would have developed nuclear weapons in time and would have threatened to bomb them if they tried to attack us. We would have negotiated a deal for peace. The worst end result would be Nazi dominion over continental Europe with a free UK and a few other nations but that happens occasionally. Remember Napoleon? Almost took over Europe.

                                                            Wasn't that claim made by Gaddafi himself?

                                                            I think it was Al-Qaeda itself that made those statements.

                                                            I would argue that our freedoms were at risk if our enemies/rivals turned most of the world against us.

                                                            If we would not have interfered in those nations then I do not understand how we could be threatened by that. It would not have changed history because Cuba and Vietnam would be communist countries.

                                                            • 3 votes
                                                            #11.59 - Sat Apr 16, 2011 12:26 PM EDT
                                                            Rhep

                                                            Yes like Bush when he made up the 9/11-Saddam connection and the WMD stuff.

                                                            Can you prove that Bush himself knew that the intel was wrong? Because if you have something you should share it - nobody else has that evidence.

                                                            And the West always interfered with their border disputes. Why can't the west "mind its own business"?

                                                            Always is a long time. Besides, UK and Kuwait had a mutual defense agreement, they legally hadto intervene. Before that, the Ottoman Empire tried to get at Kuwait, but the very wealthy traders in Kuwait objected.

                                                            Well, some more cowardly people had to be inspired a little harder but it had to be done.

                                                            Um...what?

                                                            No way. Not unless they agreed to withdraw from Western Europe and the worst scenario would have been a slowed down Soviet advance across Eastern Europe but that would not have given the Nazis enough time to develop nuclear weapons.

                                                            I bet the Brits would have agreed to a cease-fire, even a temporary one. I also doubt Russia could have pushed across all of Europe against a united German front.

                                                            Even if they did lose and I think that is impossible, we would have developed nuclear weapons in time and would have threatened to bomb them if they tried to attack us

                                                            Our bombers couldn't reach that far.

                                                            The worst end result would be Nazi dominion over continental Europe with a free UK and a few other nations but that happens occasionally. Remember Napoleon? Almost took over Europe.

                                                            So in another 30 years when they are ready to fight another major war, what do you think would have happened?

                                                            I think it was Al-Qaeda itself that made those statements.

                                                            They offered letters of support, but there haven't been more than traces of actual members found.

                                                            If we would not have interfered in those nations then I do not understand how we could be threatened by that.

                                                            The same way we were threatened by Soviet missiles in Cuba during the CMC.

                                                            It would not have changed history because Cuba and Vietnam would be communist countries.

                                                            And Korea, Germany, ALL of Eastern Europe, most (if not all) of Asia and Africa, and much of South America.

                                                            That is a very large portion of the world.

                                                              #11.60 - Mon Apr 18, 2011 3:36 AM EDT
                                                              Polka14

                                                              Can you prove that Bush himself knew that the intel was wrong? Because if you have something you should share it - nobody else has that evidence.

                                                              The Bush Administration was conspiring to invade Afghanistan and Iraq before 9/11. What they needed was a reason to invade and they used torture to gather fake evidence to try and convince the world to approve their wars of neo-imperialism in the middle east.

                                                              Always is a long time. Besides, UK and Kuwait had a mutual defense agreement, they legally hadto intervene. Before that, the Ottoman Empire tried to get at Kuwait, but the very wealthy traders in Kuwait objected.

                                                              They wouldn't have to intervene if they never established imperial influence over various regions of the world.

                                                              Um...what?

                                                              You don't understand? If some were unwilling to sacrifice their lives for their nation, they had to be threatened with death if they did not do what was needed to drive the Nazis out of their lands. That is what they did.

                                                              I bet the Brits would have agreed to a cease-fire, even a temporary one. I also doubt Russia could have pushed across all of Europe against a united German front.

                                                              If that is true, then that would be unfortunate but we do not know what could have occured. We are only describing hypothetical situations.

                                                              So in another 30 years when they are ready to fight another major war, what do you think would have happened?

                                                              Cold War. Maybe a Nazi-dominated Europe would have eventually collapsed like the Soviet Empire did.

                                                              The same way we were threatened by Soviet missiles in Cuba during the CMC.

                                                              The Cold War was a mutual arms race and strategic use of military force in puppet states and we had missiles close to their nation. If we did not participate in a Cold War, the Soviet Union would have no reason to threaten us with a nuclear missile strike from Cuba.

                                                              And Korea, Germany, ALL of Eastern Europe, most (if not all) of Asia and Africa, and much of South America.

                                                              That is a very large portion of the world.

                                                              How does that effect the US directly?

                                                              • 1 vote
                                                              #11.61 - Mon Apr 18, 2011 11:42 AM EDT
                                                              Rhep

                                                              The Bush Administration was conspiring

                                                              That's a no...

                                                              They wouldn't have to intervene if they never established imperial influence over various regions of the world.

                                                              Actually the Kuwaitis asked the Brits for protection from the Ottomans and Germans.

                                                              You don't understand? If some were unwilling to sacrifice their lives for their nation, they had to be threatened with death if they did not do what was needed to drive the Nazis out of their lands. That is what they did.

                                                              I thought you supported freedom? Threatening to kill your family if you don't fight for someone damn near on the other side of the world seems kinda....evil.

                                                              Then again, Stalin was busy killing millions of his own people anyway, so I guess it didn't really matter much.

                                                              Cold War. Maybe a Nazi-dominated Europe would have eventually collapsed like the Soviet Empire did.

                                                              The Nazis didn't seem like the "Cold War" type.

                                                              If we did not participate in a Cold War, the Soviet Union would have no reason to threaten us with a nuclear missile strike from Cuba.

                                                              The Russians didn't like us. At all.

                                                              It's not like we both just said.. Oh I guess we should see who is stronger!

                                                              We didn't trust them and they didn't trust us.

                                                              How does that effect the US directly?

                                                              I shouldn't have to tell you why an entire planet that is hostile toward your nation is a bad thing.

                                                                #11.62 - Tue Apr 19, 2011 9:01 AM EDT
                                                                Polka14

                                                                That's a no...

                                                                That's a negative on the conspiracy? You don't think the Bush administration was responsible for 9/11?

                                                                Actually the Kuwaitis asked the Brits for protection from the Ottomans and Germans.

                                                                Then that was their decision.

                                                                I thought you supported freedom? Threatening to kill your family if you don't fight for someone damn near on the other side of the world seems kinda....evil.

                                                                I support freedom in my nation. The Russians have their own way. That is their way. It is likely evil but Russia is a nation of evil so it really doesn't matter at all. Like you said.

                                                                The Nazis didn't seem like the "Cold War" type.

                                                                And the Soviets seemed like the "Cold War" type? I think any nation would not prefer to be destroyed by nuclear weapons.

                                                                We didn't trust them and they didn't trust us.

                                                                Both nations should have agreed to live in peace. What would be the purpose of decades of a nuclear arms race and hostility between the superpowers? More could be accomplished with mutual peace or at least neutrality. The Cold War was only waged for our own interests. The interests of all those nations caught in the conflict has suffered. That is not fair or right.

                                                                • 2 votes
                                                                #11.63 - Tue Apr 19, 2011 11:10 AM EDT
                                                                Rhep

                                                                You don't think the Bush administration was responsible for 9/11?

                                                                No, and neither does most of the world.

                                                                Then that was their decision.

                                                                Yup, alliances are like that.

                                                                It is likely evil but Russia is a nation of evil so it really doesn't matter at all.

                                                                It was under Stalin. Though it says something that you would rather not stand to oppose their spread of evil.

                                                                And the Soviets seemed like the "Cold War" type?

                                                                Obviously.

                                                                I think any nation would not prefer to be destroyed by nuclear weapons.

                                                                There was more to it than MAD.

                                                                Both nations should have agreed to live in peace.

                                                                We did, it's one of the reasons we all don't glow in the dark.

                                                                What would be the purpose of decades of a nuclear arms race and hostility between the superpowers?

                                                                The mutual distrust and fear did that.

                                                                The Cold War was only waged for our own interests.

                                                                Only in the sense that we didn't want to see the rest of the world mirror the Soviet Union.

                                                                  #11.64 - Tue Apr 19, 2011 11:21 AM EDT
                                                                  Polka14

                                                                  No, and neither does most of the world.

                                                                  Oh well. I think the Bush Administration is responsible for it.

                                                                  Yup, alliances are like that.

                                                                  Yes, it is.

                                                                  It was under Stalin. Though it says something that you would rather not stand to oppose their spread of evil.

                                                                  No, it simply is but it doesn't matter to us. If evil doesn't exist here, then we are safe.

                                                                  There was more to it than MAD.

                                                                  I cannot think of anything that was not MAD that could have prevented WWIII. If nuclear weapons did not exist, the Soviets may have tried to conquer all of Europe and lands beyond.

                                                                  We did, it's one of the reasons we all don't glow in the dark.

                                                                  Yes but we should have lived in peace after WWII and enjoyed a century of mutual existance.

                                                                  The mutual distrust and fear did that.

                                                                  Yes and the Cold War was part of the reason that the Soviet Union collapsed.

                                                                  Only in the sense that we didn't want to see the rest of the world mirror the Soviet Union.

                                                                  And was it our responsibility to choose for other nations to follow Soviet style regimes?

                                                                  • 3 votes
                                                                  #11.65 - Tue Apr 19, 2011 12:07 PM EDT
                                                                  Mongowildman

                                                                  No, it simply is but it doesn't matter to us. If evil doesn't exist here, then we are safe.

                                                                  Therein lies the problem. Evil exists and it is with that existence that good exists. Without a comparison, neither has meaning. We are all screwed.

                                                                    #11.66 - Tue Apr 19, 2011 1:47 PM EDT
                                                                    Rhep

                                                                    Oh well. I think the Bush Administration is responsible for it.

                                                                    Well this is the Internet, where people tend to be wrong.

                                                                    No, it simply is but it doesn't matter to us. If evil doesn't exist here, then we are safe.

                                                                    Until it decides to come here.

                                                                    I cannot think of anything that was not MAD that could have prevented WWIII.

                                                                    Ok, but like I said... the Cold War was more than a nuclear arms race.

                                                                    Yes but we should have lived in peace after WWII and enjoyed a century of mutual existance.

                                                                    So you think we could have just magically stopped the wars we have had for tens of thousands of years within a decade?

                                                                    The level of warfare in the world has decreased, btw.

                                                                    And was it our responsibility to choose for other nations to follow Soviet style regimes?

                                                                    It wasn't really an option for those states.

                                                                      #11.67 - Wed Apr 20, 2011 12:15 AM EDT
                                                                      Polka14

                                                                      Well this is the Internet, where people tend to be wrong.

                                                                      That is true.

                                                                      Until it decides to come here.

                                                                      If it comes here, it will regret it.

                                                                      So you think we could have just magically stopped the wars we have had for tens of thousands of years within a decade?

                                                                      Only the wars between the US and Soviet interests.

                                                                      The level of warfare in the world has decreased, btw.

                                                                      That is difficult to believe.

                                                                      It wasn't really an option for those states.

                                                                      It should have been their option. It is their nation. Neither the US or Soviet Union should have interfered in the Governments of any foreign nation.

                                                                      • 2 votes
                                                                      #11.68 - Wed Apr 20, 2011 12:50 AM EDT
                                                                      Rhep

                                                                      If it comes here, it will regret it.

                                                                      If the whole world is against us, we really don't have much of a chance.

                                                                      Only the wars between the US and Soviet interests.

                                                                      All both of them?

                                                                      That is difficult to believe.

                                                                      Really? Rome was almost constantly at war.

                                                                      It should have been their option. It is their nation. Neither the US or Soviet Union should have interfered in the Governments of any foreign nation.

                                                                      Sadly, real life doesn't work that way - and just like in a real fight, if you play by rules your opponent doesn't... you are probably going to lose.

                                                                        #11.69 - Wed Apr 20, 2011 1:14 AM EDT
                                                                        Polka14

                                                                        If the whole world is against us, we really don't have much of a chance.

                                                                        We would not but we have enough nuclear weapons to destroy the world so any attack of that magnitude would be a death sentence.

                                                                        All both of them?

                                                                        Korea, Vietnam, Grenada, Afghanistan.

                                                                        Really? Rome was almost constantly at war.

                                                                        And we are almost constantly at war.

                                                                        Sadly, real life doesn't work that way - and just like in a real fight, if you play by rules your opponent doesn't... you are probably going to lose.

                                                                        So do you believe that America should do what it can to defend anti-war principles or do you support military intervention overseas?

                                                                        • 3 votes
                                                                        #11.70 - Wed Apr 20, 2011 1:32 AM EDT
                                                                        Rhep

                                                                        We would not but we have enough nuclear weapons to destroy the world so any attack of that magnitude would be a death sentence.

                                                                        At that point it wouldn't need to be a military strike.

                                                                        Korea, Vietnam, Grenada, Afghanistan.

                                                                        Grenada wasn't a war and Afghanistan wasn't a Soviet/US proxy war.

                                                                        That leaves two.

                                                                        And we are almost constantly at war.

                                                                        The last time the US declared war was WWII.

                                                                        There have been a total of 12 military actions approved by congress that were not declared wars.

                                                                        (Korea was a UN war, btw)

                                                                        So do you believe that America should do what it can to defend anti-war principles or do you support military intervention overseas?

                                                                        I believe there are times when military action is justified.

                                                                          #11.71 - Wed Apr 20, 2011 8:50 AM EDT
                                                                          Polka14

                                                                          Afghanistan wasn't a Soviet/US proxy war.

                                                                          Yes it was. The US fought Soviet interests by arming Afghan militants.

                                                                          I believe there are times when military action is justified.

                                                                          Even the new war or "military action" against Libya?

                                                                          • 1 vote
                                                                          #11.72 - Wed Apr 20, 2011 12:39 PM EDT
                                                                          Rhep

                                                                          Yes it was. The US fought Soviet interests by arming Afghan militants.

                                                                          So helping supply the Mujahideen means we fought a war?

                                                                          I guess that means we were in WWII in 1939!

                                                                          Even the new war or "military action" against Libya?

                                                                          Yup, stability in that region is a much needed thing right now, the sooner that can happen the better.

                                                                            #11.73 - Thu Apr 21, 2011 12:46 AM EDT
                                                                            Polka14

                                                                            I guess that means we were in WWII in 1939!

                                                                            Isn't it called a proxy war? If Vietnam was a proxy war between the US and the Chinese Empire. If not, then Afghanistan was not a war.

                                                                            Yup, stability in that region is a much needed thing right now, the sooner that can happen the better.

                                                                            It can't be about "stability". How can allowing the war to continue be considered "stability"? Because of the foreign intervention, the Libyan civil war may last for many more weeks or for months. How long will that last until the foreigners send armed forces on the ground in Libya?

                                                                            • 1 vote
                                                                            #11.74 - Thu Apr 21, 2011 12:53 AM EDT
                                                                            Rhep

                                                                            Isn't it called a proxy war? If Vietnam was a proxy war between the US and the Chinese Empire. If not, then Afghanistan was not a war.

                                                                            Um... both the US and China fought in Vietnam, so did the Soviets actually.

                                                                            Isn't it called a proxy war? If Vietnam was a proxy war between the US and the Chinese Empire. If not, then Afghanistan was not a war.

                                                                            Because letting Gaddafi stay in power would do more to damage the regional stability than a civil war.

                                                                            Because of the foreign intervention, the Libyan civil war may last for many more weeks or for months.

                                                                            Better than another 10 or 15 years under Gaddafi, IMO.

                                                                            How long will that last until the foreigners send armed forces on the ground in Libya?

                                                                            Since the rebels don't want us there... probably a long time.

                                                                              #11.75 - Thu Apr 21, 2011 1:36 AM EDT
                                                                              Polka14

                                                                              Um... both the US and China fought in Vietnam, so did the Soviets actually.

                                                                              Alright then. I must be wrong on that.

                                                                              Because letting Gaddafi stay in power would do more to damage the regional stability than a civil war.

                                                                              The rebel militants will probably be defeated even with airstrikes damaging Libya's military.

                                                                              Better than another 10 or 15 years under Gaddafi, IMO.

                                                                              The Gaddafi regime has built Libya into the nation with the highest standard of living in Africa. The rebel militants could turn Libya in a new Islamic theocracy like Iran.

                                                                              Since the rebels don't want us there... probably a long time.

                                                                              If that is true, then the war in Libya may be fought forever. The rebel militants will probably never win in a ground war against Tripoli but the government may not be able to take rebel held territory if the foreigners wish to prevent that on "humanitarian" reasons.

                                                                              • 1 vote
                                                                              #11.76 - Thu Apr 21, 2011 2:00 AM EDT
                                                                              Rhep

                                                                              Alright then. I must be wrong on that.

                                                                              Not really. We were involved in a proxy war, but we didn't fight a war in Afghanistan during the Soviet invasion.

                                                                              The rebel militants will probably be defeated even with airstrikes damaging Libya's military.

                                                                              Only time will tell, eventually Gaddafi will run out of money to pay his mercenaries and the rebels know it.

                                                                              The Gaddafi regime has built Libya into the nation with the highest standard of living in Africa. The rebel militants could turn Libya in a new Islamic theocracy like Iran.

                                                                              Oil money doesn't mean they live well, otherwise they wouldn't be rebelling.

                                                                              There is always a danger in rebellion, but the rebel government seems fairly level-headed.

                                                                              If that is true, then the war in Libya may be fought forever

                                                                              Just until Gaddafi dies. There would also likely be a split in the nation before then, Libya and New Libya.

                                                                                #11.77 - Thu Apr 21, 2011 2:24 AM EDT
                                                                                Polka14

                                                                                Just until Gaddafi dies. There would also likely be a split in the nation before then, Libya and New Libya.

                                                                                If Libya is divided, it may not be called "Libya" anymore. It may return to its original names before the nation of Libya was established.

                                                                                Oil money doesn't mean they live well, otherwise they wouldn't be rebelling.

                                                                                There is always a danger in rebellion, but the rebel government seems fairly level-headed.

                                                                                I do not know what will occur in Libya but I am certain that the air campaign waged by France and the West is not done in the interests of the Libyan people. The West has its own interests in fighting Gadhafi.

                                                                                I think there is little more to say on this except that I am disappointed in Obama for allowing this military action to occur. France and other European nations could have bombed Libya by themselves. Our government must always be at war so people can make money making weapons and bombs. It will be more difficult to support a president that now supports what he has opposed in the past.

                                                                                • 2 votes
                                                                                #11.78 - Thu Apr 21, 2011 12:44 PM EDT
                                                                                Rhep

                                                                                If Libya is divided, it may not be called "Libya" anymore. It may return to its original names before the nation of Libya was established.

                                                                                I called them Libya and New Libya because you wouldn't know what I was talking about if I called them Pinkland and Orangejuicity.

                                                                                I do not know what will occur in Libya but I am certain that the air campaign waged by France and the West is not done in the interests of the Libyan people.

                                                                                France probably doesn't really want a neighbor in a civil war. Oh, and that whole killing civilians thing.

                                                                                Our government must always be at war so people can make money making weapons and bombs.

                                                                                I really doubt that was the main reason.

                                                                                  #11.79 - Thu Apr 21, 2011 1:24 PM EDT
                                                                                  Polka14

                                                                                  France probably doesn't really want a neighbor in a civil war. Oh, and that whole killing civilians thing.

                                                                                  Their civil war started without any input from the RF. If they wanted it to end, they should have bombed the rebel militants and allowed for the government to retake control over the entire nation. They don't care about civilians. They want Gadhafi gone and foreign control over Libya's oil wealth.

                                                                                  • 2 votes
                                                                                  #11.80 - Thu Apr 21, 2011 1:40 PM EDT
                                                                                  Rhep

                                                                                  If they wanted it to end, they should have bombed the rebel militants and allowed for the government to retake control over the entire nation.

                                                                                  I've already said why that is a bad idea.

                                                                                  They want Gadhafi gone and foreign control over Libya's oil wealth.

                                                                                  Um... do you have evidence that France will control the oil supply in Libya after the war?

                                                                                    #11.81 - Thu Apr 21, 2011 2:09 PM EDT
                                                                                    Polka14

                                                                                    I've already said why that is a bad idea.

                                                                                    I think it is a good idea to help restore government rule if France must intervene in sovereign Libya.

                                                                                    Um... do you have evidence that France will control the oil supply in Libya after the war?

                                                                                    Not France itself but foreign corporations.

                                                                                    • 1 vote
                                                                                    #11.82 - Thu Apr 21, 2011 2:14 PM EDT
                                                                                    Rhep

                                                                                    I think it is a good idea to help restore government rule if France must intervene in sovereign Libya.

                                                                                    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_Libyan_civil_war

                                                                                    Maybe you should read up.

                                                                                    Not France itself but foreign corporations.

                                                                                    They were already there, makes no sense.

                                                                                      #11.83 - Thu Apr 21, 2011 2:42 PM EDT
                                                                                      Reply
                                                                                      Robert in Ohio

                                                                                      Polka

                                                                                      The only thing I was happy about when Obama was elected was that I thought he would get us out of Iraq and Afghanistan and bring our troops home.

                                                                                      Instead he starts a third war in the middle east.

                                                                                      And the rest of his agenda is either mired down, wrongheaded (IMHO) or unlikely to get past a Republican House (and soon to be Republican Senate)

                                                                                      I think he should not be re-elected

                                                                                      Good thought provoking article, voted up

                                                                                      • 1 vote
                                                                                      Reply#12 - Fri Apr 1, 2011 9:07 PM EDT
                                                                                      Polka14

                                                                                      Thanks. I know that most of his policy was not successful because of GOBP opposition but this new war is something that should have never occured during Obama's watch and this may be the worst disappointment of this administration.

                                                                                      • 3 votes
                                                                                      #12.1 - Fri Apr 1, 2011 9:46 PM EDT
                                                                                      Robert in Ohio

                                                                                      Polka

                                                                                      While divided government certainly was an obstacle to be overcome, some of the agenda was not realized because it was just wrong.

                                                                                      He could have been more to the center and gotten more done early in the administration, but he was too focused on driving HCR through and did noting with anything else

                                                                                      The Republicans share the blame but a large part of the blame falls on the shoulders of Obama and his party of Democrats as well.

                                                                                        #12.2 - Sat Apr 2, 2011 9:11 AM EDT
                                                                                        Polka14

                                                                                        He could have been more to the center and gotten more done early in the administration

                                                                                        Republicans only wished to oppose Obama 150%. Even ideas they proposed and supported in the past were rejected by them because Obama supported it. They will never support anything Obama proposes even if it is 100% far right ideology. Never. Never. Never. Even the 9/11 bill for the first responders was rejected by almost all Republicans. That only proves what worthless partisan scum republican (and their tea party minion) politicians are but they don't care. It isn't like their teabagging constituents are able to understand such complex issues.

                                                                                        • 1 vote
                                                                                        #12.3 - Sat Apr 2, 2011 12:06 PM EDT
                                                                                        Robert in Ohio

                                                                                        Polka

                                                                                        He never tried to work with the Republicans until the end of the 2nd year of the administration, he pursued ideology and campaigned instead of governing for most of the first two years

                                                                                        Denigrating the opposition (yes they are the opposition and not the enemy) is counter productive to the process of achieving compromise and it is poor way to live and govern.

                                                                                        • 1 vote
                                                                                        #12.4 - Sat Apr 2, 2011 2:19 PM EDT
                                                                                        Polka14

                                                                                        He did try to work the the GOBP. I would have preferred a hardline left agenda from the President and no compromise but he decided to compromise and remove the public option. It is apperant to me that he will never be credited for compromising with the right unless he only follows their agenda and only their agenda. Interesting since Republicans loved to call those that opposed bush and his agenda a traitor or worse. Anyway, his position on Libya is wrong. We don't need any wars in Arab nations and certainly not a third one. Those that oppose wars of aggression must oppose the Libyan war.

                                                                                        • 2 votes
                                                                                        #12.5 - Sat Apr 2, 2011 6:15 PM EDT
                                                                                        Robert in Ohio

                                                                                        Polka

                                                                                        Am I expected to denigrate and disparage Obama and the Democrats to stay even with your "GOBP"

                                                                                        It detracts from the substance of your argument, if you need labels and vitriol.

                                                                                        If the HCR is overturned by the SCOTUS, how willing do you think the Republicans will be to work with Obama after they were ignored in the original HCR process, his own moderate Democrats were the reason that the public option was pulled out, because he did not need the Republicans to pass the HCR and did not get any of them as you might recall.

                                                                                        Those are the facts about compromise on the HCR ; there was none

                                                                                        • 1 vote
                                                                                        #12.6 - Sat Apr 2, 2011 6:23 PM EDT
                                                                                        Polka14

                                                                                        Am I expected to denigrate and disparage Obama and the Democrats to stay even with your "GOBP"

                                                                                        I don't care. The right are agents of the oil industry so I will continue to call them the GOBP.

                                                                                        Obama didn't get any Republican support because they will never support anything Obama does. That is all there is to say about it.

                                                                                        • 3 votes
                                                                                        #12.7 - Sat Apr 2, 2011 7:41 PM EDT
                                                                                        Robert in Ohio

                                                                                        Polka

                                                                                        That is what you would like to be all that is said about it, but unfortunately that would mean we were not portraying the whole truth, which is as I outlined it above.

                                                                                        The Demomcratic Party has as many ties to big business and is in the pocket of labor AFL/CIO, SEIU, AFSCME, UAW etc) so there is no purity of government on the left or the right.

                                                                                        You are part of ideologically pious and sanctimoniously righteous cult that follows Obammania without thought or reason and he and his cabal utilize and then ignore you all.

                                                                                        The Republicans will support and pay for his flight home to Illinois in January 2013

                                                                                        • 1 vote
                                                                                        #12.8 - Sat Apr 2, 2011 7:47 PM EDT
                                                                                        Polka14

                                                                                        Really? You think I am part of a cult that follows this "Obammania" without thought or reason even though I am openly suggesting that he shouldn't even run for a second term? If that is true, then I should be fired from the "cult". I'm not doing my job.

                                                                                        We need a new leftist President that will say "no" to anymore war. However, anything but a new Republican fascist would be good.

                                                                                        • 3 votes
                                                                                        #12.9 - Sat Apr 2, 2011 8:11 PM EDT
                                                                                        Minan59

                                                                                        However, anything but a new Republican fascist would be good.

                                                                                        I think the republican governors that have been pushing to take away tax payers and workers rights recently has awaken the voters in this country to the dangers of the fascist movement over taking the country. As a result, Obama will have an easier time getting re-elected.

                                                                                        • 1 vote
                                                                                        #12.10 - Sun Apr 3, 2011 6:50 AM EDT
                                                                                        Robert in Ohio

                                                                                        Minan59

                                                                                        I am not happy about it but I agree with you that Obama will likely be re-elected.

                                                                                        Polka

                                                                                        I am saying just blaming the lack of getting things done by Obama on the Republicans is short sighted

                                                                                          #12.11 - Sun Apr 3, 2011 9:23 AM EDT
                                                                                          Reply
                                                                                          Tenzen

                                                                                          Obama is a sham, he lied about ending the war, he lied about health care, he lied about everything. Im boycotting the election until a real candidate runs. I cant believe so many fell for his treachery, especially after the 8 year Bush debacle.

                                                                                          • 3 votes
                                                                                          Reply#13 - Sat Apr 2, 2011 11:10 AM EDT
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