Thanksgiving: Should it be Called "Turkey Genocide Day"?

Anyway, it is murder because it is an animal equal to you.

Utter nonsense the animal was raised to be FOOD.

If you have a problem with eating meat okay don't eat meat no problem but the way I see it is that you want everyone to think and be like you, not going to happen.

Your whole premise is that the meat eating people are some how evil and heartless well you are wrong.

I'm a proud, self-confessed turkey murderer. I raise 10-20 turkeys most years, sell half and eat the other half. I kill'em, hang'em to bleed out, pluck and gut'em, cook'em and eat'em. While slaughter houses ARE cruel, commercialized places, since the alternative is to starve million of humans, I vote clean the methods up, NOT ban the results. Turkey is delicious. Mine is making the entire house smell AWESOME right now.

GO choke down a Tofurkey if you want. I can look in my mouth and see the teeth of an omnivore. I eat meat. And I'm proud of raising a lot of my own. But I also buy it when I want to, without guilt.

Hell, I root for the bulls in bullfights. I laugh when some idiot gets bitten by an alligator when using them for entertainment in alligator wrestling matches. The Grizzly guy who was dumb enough to think the grizzlies liked him (other than for breakfast) deserved what he got. I just think that only fools think animals are the equals of most humans. They aren't, unless THEY stand up, and announce in a clear voice that they have become sapient. Until then, they belong on the kitchen table, next to the mashed potatos.

WRONG. Plain and simple. Self aware, yes. Sapient, NOPE. Or one of'em would have stood up and said "Don't eat me, Bro'!"

we're so damned politically correct these days i wouldn't be surprised if "turkey genocide day" is just a few years away.

SO what?? THey aren't humans, nor are they of human level intelligence. I'll eat them until the aforementioned statment comes from their beaks.

Okay, let me be very specific here. NO BEING is my equal, unless that being can announce that fact. ITSELF. Not by proxy. And I'll even go further. IF that being is an adult of it's species, it had better be able to DEFEND itself. Adult Humans who refuse to be prepared to defend life and liberty aren't even my equals. Therefore, to be blunt, YOU aren't my equal, as evidenced by your adament refusl to tolerate law abiding citizens possession of the means of self defense. This is not an attack, simply a statement of fact, in my opinion. Whatever your response to this, I DO enjoy these little back and forths we seem to get into. You ARE articulate, and a LOT of fun to argue with. Never right, in my opinion, but a lot of fun.

Honey- again, your opinions are irrelevant to me. Fun to argue with, but un-informed, overly emotional, and childish. I consider these arguments humor therapy. Again, NO, you aren't my equal. By your own choice. Like it or lump it, I could care less. And I DO apologize for bringing it in, even second hand, as this thread wasn't about that,but it was relevant to trying to make it CLEAR what my definition of equal is.

That is why I won't bother correcting the opening line of 2-13. I am NOT superior to every one and everything, just to those who fail to meet my definitions a free and equal sapient being.

I do not enjoy discussing anything with someone like you that would throw insults at their enemies.

It wasn't an insult, and you aren't my enemy. It was a statement of fact. I consider those whose goal in life is to survive and prosper, beholden to no man, acknowledging NO man my superior. I'm sorry if this attitude offends (NOT), but your offense is not MY concern.

DAMN STRAIGHT I don't. No un-intelligent creature is my equal. I feel sorry for you. You have such low self-esteem that you think an animal that will pick through @!$%# for food is your equal. So sad.

Not only do I NOT hate animals, I happen to like them alot. I have dogs, cats, horses, goats, chickens, turkeys, pigs, cows, and two ponds stuffed full of fish. I also believe in many of the conservation laws. However, animals ALSO have a place in my home, on the kitchen table, next to the mashed potatoes and crescent rolls.

Fine. Interpret that way if you want.

Vegan- Ancient Indian slang for village idiot, who can neither hunt nor fish.

Peta- People Eating Tasty Animals

BuhBYE!

we're so damned politically correct these days i wouldn't be surprised if "turkey genocide day" is just a few years away.

Not only "genocide"-- but also "ethnic cleansing"

Perhaps killing Turkeys might even be considered a "crime against humanity"?

Polka14 wrote:

All animals are sapient and more than equal to humans.

Maybe, but turkeys are really mean bastards.

Fortunately, they become tender and tasty when cooked.

Neale...ROFLOL!!

Not only do I NOT hate animals, I happen to like them alot. I have dogs, cats, horses, goats, chickens, turkeys, pigs, cows, and two ponds stuffed full of fish. I also believe in many of the conservation laws. However, animals ALSO have a place in my home, on the kitchen table, next to the mashed potatoes and crescent rolls.

Me too. I am a carnivore and I make no apologies! Now pass me a thick juicy slice of white meat, hmm?

I will add however, having grown up on a farm we treated our animals well even those that were destined for the table. No super confined spaces. No unnatural additives in the food or water. And they were killed quickly and cleanly prior to processing. Even the slaughter house in our neck of the woods killed quickly and cleanly FIRST. But of course, this was a small town and the slaughter house/meat market was small as well. Not at all like these mega factories you have these days.

I agree that conditions in these meat processing plants need an overhaul badly. I'm not against meat...but there's no reason to make the animal suffer in a prolonged and brutal way either.

That is my interpretation.

Of course it is... and to take a page from your book: "Your interpretation is wrong"

Ah, that felt nice, making declarations like that. Now I see why you did it a million times in this thread.

we are not sorry for our opinions

Never met anyone who was sorry for theirs either.

What is a "secret amendment," by the way (post 1)?

I am in favor of freedoms too.

That quote is from your own bio. Being in favor of freedoms is fabulous. I assume that you are in favor of others having freedoms too, even though they may differ from your interpretation of what they should or shouldn't be doing?

Oops... oven buzzer. Both turkey and ham done. (Poor pigs have no one championing their cause today). But I found 'em both already dead in the grocery store. At this point, it would be a further waste of their already miserable lives to not respect their existence by enjoying their presence.

Just my opinion. And, in total agreement with you, I'm not sorry for it.

Have a great Thanksgiving, Polka!

polka-

In case you haven't noticed your whole seed is full of normal, rational people who have voiced that your view is unpopular. Add me to the list of their names. The Daughter out did herself in preparing our murdered turkey with homemade gravy. We feasted heartily on it and murdered potatoes, innocent corn, cranberries and pumpkins. YUM!

I am in favor of freedoms too.

That quote is from your own bio. Being in favor of freedoms is fabulous. I assume that you are in favor of others having freedoms too, even though they may differ from your interpretation of what they should or shouldn't be doing?

Hopefully!

.Feronia-- I've noticed the same thing.

Sometimes people who say they are "in favour of freedom" mean it-- freedom for both themselves as well as for others.

But I have noticed that all too often, what some people really mean is that "I am in favour of freedom for me-- but not for thee". Freedom, yes-- but only for those that have the same opinions that I do. I find thatquite strange, actually!

But I have noticed that all too often, what some people really mean is that "I am in favour of freedom for me-- but not for thee". Freedom, yes-- but only for those that have the same opinions that I do.

Reminds me of this famous quote from George Orwell's Animal Farm:

All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others."

This article is almost one year old.

And still kicking!

And why post here?

Because before you know it, it will be Thanksgiving once again!

(Err, sorry, I men "Turkey Genocide Day" once again. )

Soon it will b time to go out and buy "Happy Turkey Genocide Day" cards"to send to people!

Do you find genocide amusing, krishna?

Not in the least. Using Turkeys for food hardly meets the definition of "genocide". (But then, you knew that, didn't you....?)

It does meet the definition.

Nope. Wrong yet again...

I don't know why you do it-- but if I'm not mistaken it seems that sometimes you just make things up-- and then you believe them to be fact????

Don't believe me-- look it up-- google for the actual definition of genocide.

Genocide is the attempt, whether successful or not, to wipe out a species, culture or other demographic, whether human or animal.

The word itself means death of a genome or species.

Genocide is the attempt, whether successful or not, to wipe out a species, culture or other demographic, whether human or animal.

The word itself means death of a genome or species.

Well, in that case-- calling Thanksgiving a "genocide of Turkeys" is false-- its indeed distortion of the facts. :-(

It can be said that it is attempted genocide.

Yes-- that could be said-- but of course it would be saying something totally false.

(It could also could be said that the Moon is made of Bleu Cheese...)

In your example its a question of intent-- what, exactl;y, are theseTurkey killers attempting to do?

Are they attempting to commit genocide-- to eliminate Turkeys-- wipe out the species?

OR: are they attempting to kill them in order to eat them?

(And, after all, if the so-called 'genocide' were real-- they would eliminate them-- and have none for the next year.)

Obviously, they are not motivated by a desire to wipe out the species-- that's sheer nonsense!

Simply killing vast numbers of them is systematic mass murder on the same scale as genocide.

Nope-- its not.

I believe that it is the appropriate word to use

You have a right to believe whatever you want.

But the fact is-- words have meanings.

By making up your own absurd definition of Turkey genocide -- you are being a silly goose!

But the fact is-- words have meanings.

By making up your own absurd definition of Turkey genocide -- you are being a silly goose!

Btw, because of the semantic nature of this discussion, iI've clipped this to the NV group "Word Play" (even though i myself am a bit anti-Semantic 8-)

A group for people who love words - their meanings, associations...what you can do with them. A place on newsvine for people to have some fun with words and language.

I can not believe we are seriously having this conversation, roflol!

I can not believe we are seriously having this conversation, roflol!

Well-- some of the participants are very serious.

Other-- not so much!

(Perhaps some of the non-vegetarians here should be tried as war criminals? I myself genocided a Tuna today-- yup, I had a Tuna Sandwich for lunch!)

I hope none of those who believe it's genocide to eat animals in mass quantities don't even buy or wear and leather products. Footballs, shoes, sofas, etc. In the name of consistency, mind you.

Perhaps some of the non-vegetarians here should be tried as war criminals?

I outsource the food-suppy genocide to mercenaries.

Wow! So do I! Of course, I grew up being one of the mercenaries....farm girl, raised cattle for milk and meat for ourselves and sold it to "the man", lol. We also enslaved horses too. We were all horrid horrid people. /snarc

Of course, I grew up being one of the mercenaries

Ah, I knew those mercenaries started out young!!

I will admit, though, that when it came to enslaving horses, I participated myself several times. ;0)

Wow! So do I! Of course, I grew up being one of the mercenaries....farm girl, raised cattle for milk and meat for ourselves and sold it to "the man", lol. We also enslaved horses too. We were all horrid horrid people. /snarc

I wonder if any farmers..ever have fears of being tried as "war criminals"?

(Perhaps the UN could pass a resolution about that-- or at least spend hours/days debating it?)

You'll never take me alive, Copper! :P

There was no personal attack. But it is EXACTLY what I expected from you.

Polka, we must eat. How we eat though, is where there trouble begins. We have turkey farms, and the turkeys are treated with great disrespect. However, and again, we must eat. There must be sacrifices, which the turkeys provide. We can all say that the turkeys do not agree with their slaughter, but what can we do?

HERE is the comment, my dear.

"The turkey is a brainless creature, like some others I could mention. It isn't capable of being thankful. They are so @!$%#ing dumb that some of mine have drowned in rainstorms. They are too stupid to head for shelter, and they look straight up and drown. The Majestic turkey is the wild one. The Domestic ones can starve to death if the food dish is more than 6 inches off the floor. They won't see it. They can also drown in their water bowl. I can understand why you empathize with them."

Kindly point out where I "You called me dumb and brainless." I said no such thing. Restore it immediately, or expect a protest to Tyler over this.

No. I said you empathize because you seem to think brainless animals are equals to humans everywhere you post, so I expected it from you here, as well. But, since I like Tyler, and don't want to bother him on Turkey Munchin' Day, I'll leave him alone. You may enjoy your petty, dictatorial victory in peace.After all, to me, people protest the most when a remark hits home. Perhaps it is YOU who think you are brainless. I don't think you're brainless, just that you're a lunatic left-leaning liberal who denies your nature.

A liberal fits the definition of lunatic to me!!

as per sally, the new moderator, it is not a violation of the CoH to imply.

Independent- Thank you for that tidbit. Perhaps HER calling ME a murderer counts as a CoH violation. SHe didn't imply it, she stated it.

POLKA- Be consistant- delete comment 4-11 as a violation of the CoH. I am NOT a murderer, and I resent that implication. (Actually, I could care less, but your hypocrisey makes me laugh!!)

Nit-picking. Gotta love it! Happy Turkey Munching Day!

However, and again, we must eat.

ReyRik,

We must eat, but we don't HAVE to eat meat. Humans are omnivores, we have LOTS of options. Millions of people word-wide got their whole lives without ever eating meat. (I'm vegan which is rare, although many vegetarians are near vegan).

Kaviaq- out of politeness, I shall not post an old joke about vegans. But I CERTAINLY don't consider vegetarianism a particularly noble (OR despicable) a lifestyle. I just don't consider it MY lifestyle.

Turkeys have the same right to live as any human on Earth.

Go tell it to the gazelle the lion devours before it is even dead. Tell it to the seal the shark munches on. Grow up. It's truly a circle of life. necessary, sometimes cruel, and often done rather messily, but it is LIFE. Get over it. YOU kill every time you take an ati-biotic, or do you draw a line at just what life is really sacred?? Every breath, you suck in airborne microbes and cruelly drown them in acid when they reacf your stomach. Stop breathing if that bothers you. THEN, some microbes will have a feast.

I'm sorry. Vegans are NOT going to force me to become one of them. I WILL continue to eat the diet I am designed for. And ANYONE who attempts to prevent that shall find that the tools of animal harvesting work equally well in self defense.

Please note, also, that the most intelligent animals in nature are NOT vegetarian. THey are meat eaters. After all, it takes NO brains to sneak up on a blade of grass.

You don't possess the means to force me, but I get the point you are trying to make. IT's just an idiotic assumption to me. Now, I'm going to go inspect the progress of my victim's transformation from dead bird to gourmet feast.

If not for the inclusion of meat in the human diet, we would have never evolved beyond the prehistoric vegetarian (and now extinct) versions that came before us. The addition of the meat proteins is what fostered the growth of the brain into the high powered wonder that it is. All sub-species that preceded modern humans were short in that department.

Nope. Not me. Maybe sedentary people can live that way but I am very active in a physical sense. I work hard and the meat proteins are essential.

Ya see, it has nothing to do with morality to me. Food is food. Murder is against humans. I did try a long time ago and it didn't work. I think it has to do with some physiological differences, where some people can do without just fine, while others cannot.

I am not a big meat eater either but no vegan by any means. I eat what my body calls out for and that's that.

Come to think of it... I haven't had ice cream in ages!

Humans invented the term to reflect actions of humans against humans.

You will have a very hard time getting that one through. What would you do if the animals decided your fate? They kill without conscience, out of necessity. Or should the predators just eat their veggies and shut up about it too?

A lion would see food. Any large cat will. Bears, sharks, lots of animals will eat you without thinking twice. They are predators.. Humans are predators too. Humans kill for food or to feed others, just like the lioness kills to feed her family. Humans also kill for sport. Personally, I don't agree with that part but I do understand the necessity to cull herds before they put themselves in a situation that can cause them to starve. With the protections we give many animals, they have been allowed to breed beyond the capacity of their habitat. I have no problem with thinning the herds if it means a better chance for the rest to survive.

All the same, we raise farm animals for food. Humans have always done that, even before there was ever any record of it. We not only eat the healthy, we eat their young, we eat their unborn. It is our nature to do so, it is against our nature to deny it.

Animals can choose. "Do I eat this one or that one?"

The Donner party even ate humans...(or so I have been told).

The point is, we are still animals, regardless of whatever moral pretenses are professed. The only difference it that we wear clothes and mastered technology. Beneath it all, we are still animals. Some animals eat other animals. It is Nature's way. The whole concept that vegetarians or vegans are morally on the higher ground is sadly, misconceived. It is actually kind of condescending to call the natural way, wrong. To try to change the rest of the world to your own preference is self-serving, wouldn't you say?

The way humans kill and eat animals is not exactly natural.

The methods may not be natural, but neither is the way we breed and raise them. It IS natural to consume them. It had to be made easy to satisfy the demand.

You may think that if you are a human supremacist but vegans believe that animals are friends, not food and that makes them equals..

Right. In a way that is. Occasional can mean different things to different people. Personally, I do not consume that much but without it, I will get weak and sickly. Not the way I want to be, so to maintain my own health, it is necessary. If humans could all subsist on vegetation only, would that not include me? Some of us require a higher intake for a healthy life.

You may think that if you are a human supremacist but vegans believe that animals are friends, not food and that makes them equals.

I think of most animals as friends too but not my food. I do not consider them to be my equal, as they do not possess the qualities necessary to achieve that rank. (language, ability to control their environment, cognizant thinking, etc.)

No. Vegans are doing this for the benefit of the animals, not themselves.

So they think. The vast majority of the human race is not in agreement, so that makes it not right. The animals do not care and there is no way they could recognize, nor appreciate such sentiment. Besides, If left to their own devices, they would eat all the food they can find, until it is exhausted. Then, they would ALL starve.

What is wrong about natural?

No, I tried it before and got sick. I cannot digest beans very well so I lose out on the protein. Same thing for corn and all other grass derived plants. I hear it has something to do with blood type but I don't know for sure.

With the superior intelligence, we can fly. We can go fast, We can go places animals can't. I have heard the saying" If God wanted us to fly, he'd have given us wings". Well, he gave us the intelligence to figure it out instead.

Animals have been so over-protected that they are allowed to breed beyond the ability of their environments to sustain them. We did not leave them to nature because we jumped in and intervened with nature in the first place. Now, we have to thin the herds to make up for it.

The animals are completely oblivious to any human efforts, whether good for them or not. They will just do what they do anyway. The domestic farmed turkeys for example, have absolutely no smarts. They were bred to be stupid. They would not even exist if not for the breeding and selectivity that went into it. It is out of necessity, not cruelty that they exist.

Don't get me wrong here. I am against animal cruelty as well but there has to be a line somewhere when it comes to feeding the masses.

In order to conserve and still distribute food and feed animals, something had to be done. without that, we would also be one of those third-world countries with starving populations.

Yes, I have trouble with most grass based foods. Corn is the worst. I read somewhere that type O blood. Something I have never actually researched but will at some point. Maybe there is something that can be changed to make it work but until then, I eat meat as a necessity. Vegetable protein is not processed as well in my system and probably for a whole lot of other people.

Unless you were involved in the actual designing process on the human race, you really can't say that we were not designed to eat meat. It is just an opinion.

The ability to change our environment and adapt to extremes is one of the things that makes the human race the top banana in the predatory food chain. We can eat pretty much anything that is put on the table and I don't see that changing any time soon.

Yup. Human population is unnatural... They are breeding like wild animals in third-world countries where food is scarce. Imagine that.

Everything that exists in nature is natural - even the things we create, even our technology....

Our technology is no more than an extension of our evolution. The monkey uses the stick to pick up ants, humans use the tractor to till fields.

I can't help but wonder if many of thousands of years ago, when agriculture and horticulture were first being developed, if there were people who argued that it was 'unnatural'....

Even if it was natural, it is wrong because killing animals is cruelty and cruelty and pain is wrong.

By who's definition?

Polka- so are you. Accept it. Nature- red in fang and claw. If you ain't on the top of the food chain, YOU are food.

I would have tried to free them.

Those commercial turkeys are ill equipped to handle living on their own, or in the wild. Unlike the beautiful wild turkey in your picture, most of the food turkeys in the US are those genetic mutants bred by human. That is why they can't inseminate each other. Pretty gross if you think about it.

Personally I enjoyed my yummy Tofukey today. With homemade cranberry sauce, wild rice stuffing, mushroom gravy, sweet potatoes, and maple-roasted brussel sprouts. And a chocolate vegan cupcake for dessert. All the food and none of the cruelty.....sure tastes good!!!

To make that justification, you'd have to conclusively prove that they are being exterminated. Meaning that there is an effort to remove their species from the face of the earth. That isn't happening. You can't even pretend that it is. And without that 'extermination' aspect being valid, your entire argument is moot.

Your use of 'genocide' is wrong. This is not an opinion. It's a fact.

"You're entitled to your own opinions, not your own facts."

It is a fair comparison. Sorry if that offends anyone. Really

So the only valid outrage is yours. Got it.

Asking you to use a word that is actually accurate is not an attempt to silence you. it's a olive branch for you to display a modicum of integrity and pick a word that accurately describes the situation.

Like everyone else but without the murdered animals involved.

She wants to be snarky..okay, I'll play.

You abhor eating animals, yet you support eating plants. Plants have cellular structure, they consume resources, they thrive in particular habitats, they reproduce, they are born, and they wither and die.

You have no way of proving that plants have any less of a soul than an animal. You can't prove that animals are any more deserving to live than plants. In fact, the only argument that COULD be made is that plants have made more of an evolutionary argument for continued survival than animals, due to the fact that plants have evolved to protect themselves from being eaten by other portions of the food chain. Animals for the most part, have not.

So now that we've just taken this to the utmost ridiculous level - I'm going to wish you a Happy Thanksgiving , no matter HOW you celebrate it.

Every year, millions of Turkeys are condemned to death. If that is not some kind of genocide, then I don't know what is.

EXACTLY Student's correctly made point.

Plants and animals are not the same.

Nor are sapient beings (humans alone, on this planet, at this time) and food animals (ALL other animals on this planet at this time). Meat isn't murder.

Sapient-

sa·pi·ent
[ sáypee ənt ]

ADJECTIVE

1.
full of wisdom: wise or learned

[ 15th century. Via French < Latin sapient-, present participle of sapere "be wise" ]
sa·pi·ence NOUN
sa·pi·ent·ly ADVERB

DEFINITELY not the description of animals other than humans. It is obvious that YOU, however, do not know what it means. You are mistaking sentient (self-aware) with intelligence.

Oh well. I'm done with you for now.

Sapient and sentient... Two similar terms but vastly different in their meanings.

Sentient is to be self-aware and cognizant of one's own mortality.

Sapient is to be with knowledge and skill to obtain knowledge and wisdom.

We humans, for the most part are but one of very few species that have acquired both of these qualities. Not even our closest biological relative has both qualities. Chimps and other lower primates may give the appearances of having some level but in fact, do not. They are simply trained like any other animal. They are without conscience, which removes the sapient quality from their capacity, just like almost every other animal on this planet.

Some animals exist only to be fed upon.

It's all a matter of opinion, really. There is no medical nor scientific proof that one is right and the other is wrong. It's a matter of principle and opinion, which is what make humans superior to the rest of the animal kingdom. That much is proven fact.

what purpose do turkeys serve if not to be consumed by humans?

What purpose do humans serve?? They live....that is enough. The aren't here to serve US, they have their own lives to live.

Also, do you seriously have a problem with feeding hungry people with turkeys like so many churches and charities do this time of year?

Feeding the hungry is always a good thing. But it isn't necessary to feed them meat.

It may not be pleasant to kill something, but in a society such as ours driven by demand, it's beneficial if we do kill some to satisfy the masses.

Wow, scary statement! Should we go the Roman route and bring back the gladiators?? We wouldn't want to disappoint the "masses".

What you're saying is cruel to those who have witnessed the murder of fellow human beings.

I may not agree that Thanksgivng is a "genocide, but I agree that the murder of one animal IS equal to the murder of another (including a human animal). If I kill and eat my neighbor would it mitigate the taking of his life?? Each animal has the same "right" to life as any other. We may not all get the same chance at life- at least in the wild....but the "right" to it remains the same. My life is not intrinsically worth more than that of my dog's. My friends and family might VALUE my life more...but that is different.

Then I guess you oppose abortion correct?

We'll Polka?

The whole point of this article is trying to defend poultry and animals because they cant defend themselves. If there equal to humans then why cant they defend themselves? lets ask them to comment here on the Vine and get their opions on that.

If animals can't defend themselves so its murder to eat them why is it Ok to Kill an unborn Human? They cant defend themselves Eithor...so Abortion = Murder.

I hope to see some articles from you soon attacking abortion and defending unborn hunmas or is animal life more important to you than defending human life?

David- People aren't worthy of protecting, only animals. Didn't you know that??

SEE, David? I told you.

tesla, LOL!

Thanksgiving: Should it be Called "Turkey Genocide Day"?

Personally I think we call it "NOM NOM FREAKING NOM!" Day.

:P

Would you rename the Holocaust next??

Since you've already used the term "genocide" in regards to Thanksgiving-- what would you do? Would you rename Thanksgiving "Turkey Holocaust Day"?

Sorry been on a farm hunted and cleaned my own kills. I know what it looks like fore it gets to the grocery store. The mega farms are abominal but the demand is there. They cover veggies in poison grown in poisoned soil, twice as much for a clean veggie, or at least they charge twice as much, and say its clean.

Go to ANY reputable source on zoology, and look up dentition of carnivores, herbivores, and omnivores. Then, go look in the mirror. Give a big, toothy grin. Notice the fangs of a carnivore right next to the grinders of a herbivore. That makes us omnivores, DESIGNED to eat meat AND vegetable matter. Next, read up on the enamel of the herbivore vs trhe enamel of omnivores and carnivores. We are NOT designed to survive on vegetable matter alone. The dentin (enamel) isn't thick enough to withstand the wear that eating a straight vegetable diet means (prior to factory farming, especially), because being a vegetarian means eating LOTS of abrasives (dirt and sand) which grinds away the enamel. The fact that you have a weak stomache does NOT make it wrong to eat meat. It IS wrong the cruel way it is done in some places, but education can fix that. Banning meat won't solve anything.

Because too much of a good thing is bad is why meat is linked to some cancers. Remember, MOST of the time, that link includes the words "Burnt animal fats". Eat it rare. YUMMY. I have fangs sufficient to tear meat from an animal, though I usually use a knife and fork. I DO tend to eat too much meat, but that does not mean meat is bad.

Meat is bad, and you don't need it. Just because it tastes good to you doesn't mean that it is good.

Sorry, but I TOTALLY disagree. Meat is bad for morons, but the essential fatty acids ARE NOT available solely from plants. YOUR political beliefs are NOT scientific facts.

My political beliefs? I didn't know this was a discussion about politics, Neale.

Anyway, yes, my "beliefs" are based on facts. More people are becoming vegetarian because, well, look at the diets of most meat eaters - fast food, chicken wings, pork chops, etc. Can we say, "obesity?" "High cholesterol?" Nutritionists even tell you that if you are going to eat meat, you need to eat VERY small amounts of it because it's worse for you than it is good.

Then look at a vegetarian's diet - we get everything we need without consuming all of that fat and cholesterol. I've never been iron or vitamin B12 deficient. I also don't look like a toothpick, so I must be doing SOMETHING right.

Flux I will remember your words. I hope you do as well. I will not point out the many examples I could use to show just how silly your statement was. You already know. I am glad you like being a vegan.... Enjoy. I am not nor will I ever be a vegan. Respect mine and I will yours and when that bear is eating you for lunch on the nature trail I will be sure to let him live.

Animals don't have rights. HUMANS have rights. But left-wing lunatics think differently. I'm sick of YOUR political beliefs being used to try to force lifestyle changes on ME. I think that I'm done wasting my time with you guys. Enjoy eating nothing but plants. I'll eat my tasty, home raised meat and meat products, living a healthy life, with a good balanced cholesterol reading. AND YOU people may continue to live the lie that you don't miss the meat you used to eat. But btell me this- WHY THE HELL DOES EVERYTHING YOU EAT HAVE TO BE MADE OF TOFU, YET MADE TO TASTE LIKE MEAT?? Veggie burgers, Tofurkey, tofu bacon, etc. I'll stick with the real McCoy, you can suffer trying to make fake taste real. I've tried them, they suck.

I will not point out the many examples I could use to show just how silly your statement was.

Please do. And I would like you to point out to me where I said I was vegan, because I didn't.

Neale, enjoy your high cholesterol and unnecessary torture of innocent and defenseless creatures. Oh, and I eat tofu and veggie burgers about once a year. Smart vegetarians know that those aren't the staple of a vegetarian diet. And they are made to mock meat because some vegetarians were meat eaters and find it easy to transition into vegetarianism if they eat things that taste like meat at first.

Humans are animals and your species is no better then any other animal simply because you can speak and build technology.

YES, humans are animals. However, MY species IS superior to other BECAUSE we have the brains to create technologies. Of course, some members of the species are notably lacking in some of these qualities.

However, MY species IS superior to other BECAUSE we have the brains to create technologies

And that's pretty much it. We're not superior because of only ONE quality.

Of course, some members of the species are notably lacking in some of these qualities.

Of course, you are also lacking many qualities of other animals. Would you know how to survive in the wild without the aid of technology? Can you fly in the air without being in an airplane? Can you outrun a cheetah at 70+ miles an hour? Can you stand as tall as a giraffe? Can your skin camouflage itself when you feel threatened?

So, really, there is no such thing as there being a "superior species." We all evolved differently.

How can one animal blindly believe it is superior to all other animals and uses it as an excuse to kill other animals at will?

When a ...............(fill in the blank) finds the ability to put ME in a zoo, builds an airplane, or speaks to me in an intelligible fashion, I will acknowledge it my equal. But it better build a DAMN STRONG ZOO, or it'll find it's specimen of Osbornius Painintheassimus has escaped, and probably eaten the zookeeper.

Of course, you are also lacking many qualities of other animals. Would you know how to survive in the wild without the aid of technology? Can you fly in the air without being in an airplane? Can you outrun a cheetah at 70+ miles an hour? Can you stand as tall as a giraffe? Can your skin camouflage itself when you feel threatened?

Yes, to the survive in the wild, without he aid of these technologies. I possess the finest survival tool ever created- the human mind. I can't fly without a plane, but I CAN build one. Well, a glider. I can't outrun a cheetah, but I CAN outthink one, so that it's speed will do it no good. No, I can't stand as tall as a giraffe, but I CAN climb higher than the giraffe can stand, making me effectively taller. No, my skin doesn't camouflage itself when I feel threatened, but I CAN make a Ghillie suit, build a hide, dig a hole, climb a tree, or simply kill the threat. Again, that few pounds of meat between the ears makes me superior to everything else on this planet.

What groups of humans lack intelligence?

Politicians, those who believe the politicians, those who refuse to see the extreme advantages the human brain gives us over the lesser species, people who let their emotions determine their behavior, people like that.

Believing in human supremacy is wrong.

Failing to believe in human supremacy is not only idiotic, it is counter-survival. But go ahead and think that way. Just remember, you aren't going to survive wrong if you don't USE the supremacy of your brain.

Supplements to take the place of eating meat... Not natural.

I do. I don't eat anything that is not natural as a meal. I rarely even take aspirin, let alone artificial supplements.

Have you ever read the contents of vitamins? Many of the ingredients are animal based. Hmmm... I wonder where that came from.

Mongowildman, You really must not know anything about vegetarianism. I suggest you do some research. Being a vegetarian does not mean that one must eat carrots and lettuce and supplement the rest of their diet. Besides, I see meat-eaters take supplements.

Neale Osborn:

"It is of interest to note that while some dolphins are reported to have learned English -- up to fifty words used in correct context -- no human being has been reported to have learned dolphinese."

- Carl Sagan

I eat a lot of things. I don't understand why there are vegetarians or vegans. It seems unnatural to me.

Polka, check this out. I started looking into the blood type thing.

http://www.runtheplanet.com/trainingracing/nutrition/bloodtype.asp

Yup. O negative to be exact. Also known as "universal donor"

The part that seems unnatural is the selectivity. I still believe that some animals are here specifically to be fed upon.

PETA= People Eating Tasty Animals.

As you pointed out saying eating plants was a not cruelty even though its been proven they have feelings Polka. We won't be eating humans, the arguement is moot. You can't say that killing plants is okay cause you said so and then condemn others for eating meat. You are commiting the same offense you hand out condemnation for.

Humans are humans. Animals are animals. Plants are plants. And as I said before, even some of the plants disagree with you, as they are meat eaters as well. I'm sure it is a fine arguement but I am also sure it was made by those wishing to come to a pre-determined conclusion, yes?

I suppose there are two sides to every argument. Here is a link supporting my point.

http://www.powerofmeat.com/Why_eat_meat.htm

Humans are humans. Animals are animals.

Who doesn't know that humans are animals? That is a stupid thing to say. No offense.

A human being is not a rock or a plant. We do not make chlorophyll or go through photosynthesis. We have brains, heads, hearts, legs, etc. We breathe in oxygen. We have a pulse. We are animals.

I did read it. That was what prompted my link in the first place. It is not anti-animal propaganda, it is simply why meat is an important part of a normal diet.

Don't read more into something than what is really there.

powerofmeat.com says:

This website is not to be construed as dietary advice or support for the meat industry. This site is simply an area designed to cause you to think [...]

Don't believe everything you read on the Internet; especially propaganda websites.

I would argue that humans place too much importance on eating meat and other animal based foods but morally, humans should not eat meats. They can live without it. Yes, even you.

It's what meat-eaters can't grasp. Nobody needs meat. They try to come up with all of these excuses, when really, they only eat it because it tastes good.

Now THERE'S a good one...

first off, I don't actually LIKE meat. I don't like picking bones and I don't like gristle in my teeth. I don't particularly like the taste of most meats but once in a while, there are times when a nice steak, seasoned just right can convince me otherwise. I don't like poultry, in fact, I am a bit allergic to it and the products derived from it like flu shots and feather pillows.

I follow the drive within and when my system craves for a specific nutritional ingredient, that is what I eat. Meat is not a major part of my diet but it is a part nonetheless. It is an essential part and I am not about to change that. It is a fact of life and some of us actually require the nourishment it gives us.

Nope. They won't eat their dog or cat because those animals were not raised for food. It's not that they "love animals" it's that they "love those animals".

A lion will kill a gazelle but not it's own young. Explain that.

Nope. They won't eat their dog or cat because those animals were not raised for food. It's not that they "love animals" it's that they "love those animals".

Nope. They won't eat their pets because they actually know those animals and consider them family. But pigs, cows, etc. aren't family and therefore have no right to live because they're "tasty."

And if it gets tight I will eat the damn dog too. And the cat, both hamsters, and the parakeet. Goldfish if ya got em.

tesla would eat a human, too, I bet. After all, I hear roasting human flesh smells like bacon. Yum yum.

Flux comment 16 you said you were vegan. I would point out the many studies done that prove plants have feelings and are aware. So, even being a vegan, not killing for your food is a moot point. You are killing the plants and they feel it. This whole argument about killing for your food is moot. Doesn't matter what you eat you generally kill it first. I suppose if you are truly worried about killing something to eat you could go to eating vitamins in an attempt to salve your conscience.

So in other words "That's Different" and all the moral preaching about animal rights is just that preaching? Then I would submit that no one has the right to condem those who wish to eat the flesh of animals because we see it as "Different" as well. Whats good for the goose and all........

You are just as guilty eating the dead flesh of plants. Some(not myself) may find you just as offensive as you find them.

Plants breathe, eat , and reproduce. They can utilize defenses against enemies,creating chemicals to discourage other plants from growing around them, they produce alkaloids to make themselves unpalatable to insects. And it has been proven plants communicate with each other through phermones. And some plants themselves are meat-eaters. Those fruits and vegetables you consume are in many cases the offspring of the plant producing them. All in all just cruel.

Nonsense indeed. I have nothing against anyone who wishes to eat what they want. Just do not condemn me for my menu. I'm just pointing that many of the same cruelties are practiced in your diet same as mine.

Are there really anti-vegans?

Regardless of what you think I am not anti-vegan. I am anti "my way is the only way" and " I will not respect any other way but my own regardless"

Your not going to be happy when you are up to your armpits in flea covered deer. But good luck more vegans more meat for me. Maybe the price will go down.

If you allow them proliferate soon they will overrun their natural habitat in search of food and they will continue to propagate until either food sources dwindle or they are killed by whatever means. And they make babies like rabbits. We have as humans unfortunately hunted the predators that used to eat them to near extinction. Hell their most dangerous predator now is an Oldsmobile.

I don't hunt game for sport. I hunt for food. The predators will take centuries of uninterupted living to return to the balance that was once had. I have no respect for anyone who hunts for something to hang on a wall. I prefer to take pictures of those animals. However in the time it would take to achieve the balance the deer and others would overrun all.

Yes I agree, just be careful you are not one that it is decided should be eliminated. In my case I believe in human de-population though I would prefer to see the excess turned to space exploration rather than killing them outright, for as I said it might be yourself who gets the ticket, though in my case that's a win win thing.

Procreation is built into us at the celluar level rather hard to stop without physicaly altering the human.

Why I keep wishing our space program would take back off. We need to explore and get the hell away from one another. We become to crowded we tend to killing each other for space and resources.

Far easier to protect without so many humans on it wouldn't you agree?

Not necessarily, we have the technology already for habitat building much of it from undersea work. Mining and other natural resource development would be an incentive plus many scientific experiments that simply cannot be done on Earth could be done in space plus we could come up with a whole new way of getting rid of our waste products on Earth such as using the sun as an incinerator. Many possibilities exist and we have the tech its just about money now. But we could colonize the moon in 10 yrs easy.

tesla013, I said I was vegetarian. Vegetarianism is not the same as veganism. :)

Pardon me flux for not knowing the intricacies. I am a part time omnivore,full time carnivore.

Agreed Polka! One of the reasons I wish we would get a going out there.

Do you think you can truly rationalize genocide through primitive emotions?

Hunger may be primitive, but that's only because it a basic physiological response to lack of nourishment and therefore helps us sustain our own life.

I've never rationalized genocide, and I haven't started to do so yet, since genocide is the deliberate and systematic extermination of a national, racial, political, or cultural group. If you can prove that turkeys have formed one of these groups then you might be on to something.

I've enjoyed reading my friend Neale's comments above, and all I can do is echo his viewpoints: as a human, I'm effectively at the top of the food chain (sure, a bear or wolf might snack on me if given a good enough opportunity, but such cases are not commonplace and it's still easier for me to get a taste of them if I wish) and unless some animal can prove that it is my equal and deserves all the same rights and respect a fellow human gets from me, they're all potentially on the menu.

If you're willing to go all out in defending domestic turkeys raised for food (not exactly the smartest/nicest/cutest things out there) then I'd hate/love to hear your reaction to at least one of the dishes I enjoyed in Vietnam over the summer.

At first I thought you may be a devotee of Peter Singer, but your positions would be extreme even for him.

Singer's arguments are controversial, but, unlike some of yours, they're at least coherent.

It isn't different then trying to rationalize the killing of humans.

Yes, it really is different than trying to rationalize that.

You don't think that non-humans are equal to you??

They are worth a great deal to me, but by no means are they my equals.

Your human supremacist views are undermining your ability to rationally think.

It's a simple fact that in many (most?) ways, humans are superior to animals. Sure, I can't fly or swim (at least not well). But what other species has been able to invent and consistently create tools (planes, submarines, cars, etc.) that allow it to so far surpass it's natural abilities? I can't see as well at night as some animals, but I can obtain night vision goggles. I might not be able to take on a grizzly bear in a fight using my bare hands, but thanks to human ingenuity, there are tools at my disposal that give me a chance.

Never has genocide (or in this case turkicide? I don't know) been so juicy and delicious!

OMGosh! ROFLOL! I nearly spit coffee on my computer when I read that. "Turkicide"....LOL!!!!

.

I've never rationalized genocide, and I haven't started to do so yet, since genocide is the deliberate and systematic extermination of a national, racial, political, or cultural group. If you can prove that turkeys have formed one of these groups then you might be on to something.

lol, no kidding.

My arguments are coherent. It is wrong to infringe on the rights of others.

I totally agree so please step away from my oven so I can cook this 20 pounder and eat what I want. Thanks.

It is wrong to infringe on the rights of others. Killing turkeys infringes on their right to live.

How do you feel about the concept of people having pets? What about service animals? Do those things infringe on their rights as well?

OMGosh! ROFLOL! I nearly spit coffee on my computer when I read that. "Turkicide"....LOL!!!!

I'm glad someone enjoyed it! :)

Some pets like to live in a human family and some do not.

Unless it's attacking you or clawing at the walls to escape, how do you know if a pet (such as a goldfish or something like that) likes to live in a human family?

Well, you ask it, silly! :P /sarc

If it says no, you dump the poor thing out "in the wild" so it can be free to starve to death, freeze in the cold, not have veterinary care against all kinds of disease and likely die a slow miserable death years sooner than it should.

But hey! Don't let that stop you.

Could you do the same to rationalize ethnic cleansing of humans?

Do you really consider Thanksgiving to be an "ethnic cleansing" of Turkeys?

It is a unique and amazing animal

All animals that we eat are unique and amazing-- but of course that's just my opinion!

(Heck-- some of the plants we eat are also unique and amazing..and did you know-- a plant screams when you chop it down?)

a plant screams when you chop it down?)

It "could be said" that you are committing genocide each time you mow your lawn!

Except that rain clouds are not alive, nor do they have nerves.

Plants are, and they do. Plants react to stimuli and have immune systems. They can even remember - did you know that?

Plants are, and they do. Plants react to stimuli and have immune systems. They can even remember - did you know that?

OMG-- that's scary!

What if plants ever start to organize-- and fight back?

Start attacking human in revenge for all the years we've genocided them?

What if plants ever start to organize-- and fight back?

Don't laugh-- we've already had one close call when the tomatoes got organized-- and decided to fight back!

What if plants ever start to organize-- and fight back?

Isn't that the plot of a crappy M Night Shyamalon movie?

They don't remember. You wrote a blatant falsehood.

The hell they don't! They remember quite a bit actually, such as light patterns, weather patterns, even changes in climate and seasonal pathogens.

Plants don't feel anything. They don't sense anything

No? Then how do they adapt to their environment? Why are there studies showing music effects how plants grow?

It isn't cruel to consume them because they don't suffer in life or death.

What ever you need to tell yourself to not feel bad eating that salad.

The symbolism with clouds represents the ignorance found in the argument that "plants feel pain".

Well in that case fire is alive too, right? Guess we better shut down the local FD!

If you accept their arguments then you can argue that clouds sense their surroundings based on that absurdity.

Except not, because clouds are chains of chemical reactions in a non-sentient object. It would be like saying your car needs a blanket because the engine isn't warm and you don't want it to shiver.

Studies have proven that they do remember. I don't care if that means you feel bad eating your sprout sammich.

I'll take the word of science over some girl on the Internet that doesn't want to feel bad eating her Oatmeal.

If plants don't feel pain, neither do fish.

They don't remember. You wrote a blatant falsehood. Plants don't feel anything. They don't sense anything. They feel no pain and have no memory or feeling.

Of course they do feel! I play soothing music for my houseplants to keep them happy. (My Pothos is especially fond of Vivaldi...). I talk to them in a soothing voice to keep them happy...and after I gained their trust they started to reply. And they did explain how they are often brutally abused-- occasionally even genocided-- by past owners. You have no idea how many war crimes, apartheids, genocides, and violations of International Law are committed agaisnt innocent houseplants by some cruel owners-- in some cases on a daily basis!

Show me some links to legitimate sources that proves that plants "feel pain" or I will assume that you invented that falsehood to make me look bad.

Funny how quick you dropped your issue with them remembering and being able so sense their surroundings...

First we would have to agree upon what "pain" is.

It serves no biological purpose for a plant to "feel pain" and they don't possess the ability to feel pain.

Reacting to stimuli is a great reason to feel pain.

Fish suffer great pain when dragged out of the water by some human and slowly killed.

Source?

Animals suffer when killed.

Not all, and most certainly the most cruel would be those other than human.

Yes-- its always struck me as ironic that people who protest humans' killing animals for food never bring up the atrocities committed by animals on other animals.

Perhaps we shoukld have a "Zebra Genocide Day"-- in memory of all those innocent Zebras murdered by genocidal Lions in Africa.

There are plants that eat animals...

There are also animals that eat animals, and animals that eat plants.

I eat them all.

I don't believe that plants feel pain but if they did, it is preferable to consume them because animals consume plants too so you would limit cruelty by not engaging in the consumption of dead turkeys and other animals.

But-- animals also eat animals-- did you forget that?

Pigs eat almost anything you put in front of them. Actually, most birds are omnivores too.

I don't understand how that statement tries to disuade me from eating animals that eat other animals. If they do it, so will I. (A clean kill from a hunter doesn't involve much suffering, btw.)

I'm only an animal, after all.

Not at all, farm animals are generally fed grains and wild animals are eating other animals anyway. If anything I'm reducing suffering of more animals by eating the thing that was going to eat them.

Think of the suffering by all of the livestock feed! MILLIONS of plants grown and cut down in their prime to feed those animals.

krishna, animals killed for human consumption feed on plants. If plants feel pain (they don't) then only eating plants would reduce suffering because it would spare plants and animals.

Yes-- but some plants get revenge! They turn the tables-- and feed on animals!

Heh :-)

I'm only an animal, after all.

Good point!

Anyone that wishes to reduce suffering would cease to consume meat because those animals eat large amounts of plants

Not all of them.

Think of all the lives I save by preventing those wild birds from eating animals for years to come!

Only consuming plants prevents suffering or at least reduces the amount of imaginary and real suffering.

Not really. What about all of the suffering caused by the destruction of habitat for the creation of fields for your food? Or does suffering only count when we do it?

You would "save" lives by killing? That doesn't make any sense to me.

How many animals do you think those birds would kill in the rest of their viable lifespan? Hundreds? Thousands?

Kill one to save thousands, sounds like a fair trade.

Both forms of food production require that to occur.

I don't remember destroying any habitat while hunting. Quite the contrary, actually.

But only consuming plants reduces the number of plants consumed

Wrong. You would need more plants to make up for the loss in animal nutrition.

I would say it is wrong because the bird didn't deserve to die like the animals it killed but the bird must consume the insects because it has no choice.

Most birds are omnivores, how do they not have a choice? So you are saying that some animals deserve to die? That seems somewhat hypocritical.

You probably polluted the air driving there and perhaps poisoned the land if you used a shotgun.

Except that the 10% excise tax on firearms and ammunition goes to restoring the wilderness, and I used steel shot with bio-degradable clays.

That is acceptable. Consuming plants is good. Consuming animals is wrong.

So it's OK to destroy their homes so they die of starvation or get killed after wandering into a populated area, but if we kill them to eat it's wrong?

Unfortunately, no.

Why not? They most certainly do choose what they will eat.

They don't deserve to die but the bird can't be convinced to stop consuming insects. It is unfortunately unavoidable. Humans can avoid cruelty though.

Birds eat more than bugs.

Then you didn't pollute then. But the majority of animal consumption contributes to pollution and the death of plants in addition to infringement upon animals.

Not nearly so much as the destruction of the environment due to large-scale farming.

It is unfortunately required. Consuming plants is necessary.

No, absorbing nutrients is necessary. No matter where they come from.

Face it, your vegetarianism is just as bad as my omnivore lifestyle. They only differ in how they are bad. (I personally don't think either choice is "bad" but whatever.)

They eat what they can eat.

Not at all. They choose what they eat as much as you or me.

Yes, that is true. They consume insects and other animals.

bugs = insects

Waterfowl eat a wide variety of things, including fish. Does that mean I can eat fish? After all, they don't feel pain.

Then it must be natural for them to consume it. Don't complain about it. Only decide for yourself if you want to contribute to pain and suffering of your fellow animals or not.

I'm not the one complaining about animals (including humans) eating what they choose to eat.

For example, my eldest daughter (4) has a diet heavy in chicken while my youngest (22mo) refuses to eat bread that isn't freshly baked. Both choose to have those diets, do you think they consider what you consider "right" any more than the duck?

Because they're subjective topics and not universal.